On the subject of racism.

Kelvin Mackenzie's article was in the Sun, not on television.

Can it not be the whole time leading up to the vote we heard of immigrants , politicians saying it is not racist to speak out against immigration, even Boris Johnson made his offensive comment of Obama having a Kenyan father. So Brexit didn't start racism but it certainly opened the flood gates for racists to openly express their racist views.

I have not heard one racist comment in my town but I know throughout the country there has been a rise in racist attacks since the referendum, because I haven't personally heard such comments But accept it is true, am aware of the police reports on the news

I wonder whether the area you live in influences whether you hear racist comments. The fact that some posters haven't heard racism doesn't mean it isn't alive and well in the UK. I agree that this is a largely tolerant country but I see and hear racism more often than I like.
I enjoyed chatting with an African (successful asylum seeker) cab driver recently until he told me the root of the worlds problems like with the Jews. Before I could respond, he told me they own all the money in the world, Israel ought not to be allowed to exist.
I've heard local people complain the Romanians/Pakistani/all those muslims are moving closer to the largely white are of town where I live.

We have numerous African asylum seekers being housed on one of our large council estates. Several of the women were racially abused in their local supermarket last week.

I live in a very pleasant suburb just outside a former mill town. Like other similar towns, we're umbrella towns for asylum seekers because rents are cheaper than in other areas. These towns, like poor areas in the north and south east all voted Leave. Immigration was a key factor. There seems to have been a falsely encouraged belief that we'd close our borders, and even send people back (what to warn torn African countries?)

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I wonder whether the area you live in influences whether you hear racist comments. The fact that some posters haven't heard racism doesn't mean it isn't alive and well in the UK. I agree that this is a largely tolerant country

Exactly so, iam. I think racism is alive and well in most countries. I said earlier I hadn't heard racist comments but since I said that I've remembered that I have. In Thailand. Against Tamil immigrants there.

I also heard complaints about racist behaviour in Oxford, form a Ugandan Asian friend. She had not experienced it in Oxford but in her home town of Worcester. I did not hear any racism or xenophobia in Oxford though many of my friends were foreigners.

I did not say justify racism. I said justify it, meaning your clain that Brexit was not responsible for racism.
Obviously you are now going to claim you did not mean that.
Why do you feel the need to criticise me personally all the time?

I'm criticising your propensity to misunderstand my posts, dj. I suppose I should be used to it by now.

Oh come on TBags- dj and myself too are quite used to your regular personal attacks and misconstruations and disingenuous denials when you start stirring.

"Inject poisonous implications" is not quite the same as propensity to misunderstand, bags. It's criticising me personally. If I misunderstood it, perhaps you could explain better, for someone as simple as me.
Or perhaps I would be better off just ignoring your posts, as I seem to misunderstand them so often. Perhaps you could afford me the same courtesy.

I think what may have happened to cause what I see as misinterpretation of my post at 20:33:04 is that what I would call a rationalisation, an attempt to understand the whys and wherefores of a phenomenon, others call justification. Justification is a loaded word and that's why I objected to it. I don't see rationalisation (trying to understand in as neutral terms as possible) as the same thing as justification at all.

jura, I do not do deliberate misconstructions and disingenuous denials. I argue as devil's advocate sometimes and I take the piss about things sometimes but I hope I always make it clear when I'm doing that. I am honest and I resent your suggesting otherwise.

I've slept on what I said on this thread yesterday and I don't regret any of it.

The reason I used the expression "inject poisonous implications" is because, as I tried to explain late last night, I regard the use of the term 'justify' (as in Don't care how you try and justify it, it's wrong ) in talk about racism as unjust and as assuming something bad in me because it seems to suggest that I was saying it wasn't wrong. Of course racism and everything associated with it (in this case the racist happenings after the referendum, the "it" in the bolded sentence above) is wrong. No-one, and particularly not me, has said otherwise.

And therefore I regard the implication in that sentence that I had said or implied otherwise as a poisonous injection. So I said so.

I'd be very happy if you ignored all my posts, dj. I do ignore most of yours.

It is exactly these little 'poisonous injections' into the political threads that do spoil them. Usually these are in reply posts to someone who's views are different from another's or sometimes, because an arguement is put forward that is complex and the complexities have been misunderstood.

Many a time a post would be just as effective without these comments, and indeed have more gravitas.

Oh well said Anya and tbags.

Therefore it's the fault of Brexit DJ.really?That simple.Any racist crime is vile but do you seriously think that if the majority vote had been Remain that what have been the end of any racially motivated crimes and we would all be living in some multicultural utopia.And yes I did vote Leave and no immigration was not the main and only reason for that,but from your many posts I've read you take the moral higher ground and presume to know better than any Leave voter themselves why they voted out.
Is it too simple to say -well obviously it is because I'm a thick Leaver- that if the majority vote had been Remain we would still have seen hate crimes perpetrated by the very nasty ,and very small minority of the far right BNP who I persorally abhor and have no connection with their truly racist agenda.

from your may posts you presume to know exactly what my motivation for that was and take the moral higher ground.

Has anybody claimed anywhere that all people who voted Leave are racist?

I find your comment about 'living in a multicultural utopia' a straw man argument.

Racism is here its always been here, so get use to it.

However,

I have noticed an increase in mixed race marriages, I've noticed that couples who live together don't mind about race, and my two grand children have mixed race friends.

So In my opinion, its getting better.

What about the upheavals in London? In Hyde Park. Is it just heat related all these stabbings?

Do you think this song is racist? It was very popular when it came out in 1969. But so was Alf Garnett!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HHT_V294Co

Not everyone who voted to leave is racist, however I suspect that almost all that are racist voted to leave. Those people now feel vindicated in their views and are prepared to express them more openly that before as they think they are in the majority.

Also,IMO, it does depend upon where you live how obvious racism is.
It doesn't seem to matter what cultural mix one's area is, our village is mainly white English, with a number of Eastern Europeans working on farms and a handful of other ethnic families. YET I hear racist views quite often. We are in Leicester atm, a very multicultural mix, not aware of any racist undertones.

Let's hope our young people will me more tolerant.

It is never acceptable to make racist remarks. Whatever people think is their own business I guess, but it is never acceptable to make remarks, or behave in a vile manner towards towards those of a different race/religion, or those of your own race/religion for that matter. I also believe it is not acceptable to make comments regarding what a person in the referendum voted, I voted remain, but would not make any comment to anyone else about their vote. I'm not sure the Brexit vote has increased racism, I think it more likely the horrible news 're Syria, Nice, refugees, and now even Turkey, may have more to do with it, but I'm prepared for others to disagree with me.

I agree 'justification' is different to 'rationalisation' - but the margin can be very small. And to qualify the interpretation of that small margin as 'a poisonous injection' is indeed a step too far- and yet again a personal attack on dj and out of order.

To deny racist attacks have not increased and become bolder, in some parts of the UK, since Brexit- just because you've not seen it happen in your area- is also wrong. This has been well documented, by the Press, social media and totally backed by Police records. Denial could be construed as dangerous and disingenuous too- so I am glad the Police and GVT and local Councils have taken this on board.

GandTea- give Leicester a big hug from me. Yes, Leicester is a very special multicultural and tolerant, open town- and long may it survive, even in this post Brexit toxic atmosphere that prevails in parts of the UK.

I did read that people in areas where there are few immigrants are the most concerned with regards immigration, because it's a sort of fear of the unknown.

Those people now feel vindicated in their views and are prepared to express them more openly that before as they think they are in the majority.

I think that's a good way of putting it, gand, and it's what I failed to say so clearly. The important words are "they think". Society needs to show them that they are not in the majority, not by a long way.
It's also why I said I hoped the 'outbreak' would be dealt with properly and soon, and/or that it would die out at least back to previous levels but hopefully further than that.

I think racism still exists in some young people but Minibags has already 'shed' a couple of friends after they made racist remarks and carried on even when challenged. Perhaps her generation are more willing to openly challenge people who make racist remarks. I hope so, so long as they don't put themselves in danger by doing so.

I have no intention of ever getting use to racism Gononsuch

I live in an area with a high proportion of immigrants and an equally high proportion of appalling racist behaviour. Whereas before Brexit, the abusers merely spat out their vile remarks, nowadays, most of the slurs have a "Brexit themed" coda attached.