Scotland/Sturgeon

PS I wouldn't exactly expect to get unbiased information from SNPs own website!

Jane10 I felt the same as you for a day or two after this awful result but I've come to my senses again now, I am no separatist. There are far too many divisions in this world. I want to be what I have always been - Scottish, British and Europaen.

I know I'm being a bit thick here but why are the Scots so desperate to leave the UK of four countries where they have more influence than they perhaps realise but even more desperate to stay with the the leviathan EU where they will be the smallest bit player with very little influence?

And - if the Scots do leave the UK will they take the Queen with them? She is after all mostly of Scots descent (with a bit of German) since Elizabeth I left England to a Scotlish monarch.

Elizabeth 1st didn't leave the throne to Scotland! As she had no children James V1th of Scotland was her heir through the marriage of her aunt to James 1Vth of Scotland. The Queens mother was Scottish, her father since George 1st almost completely German with a tad of Danish, and even they had German blood.

Either way, not English or Welsh then!

Agreed Jane, but it will be biased the other way and allow you to draw your own conclusions. As to the oil, yes PRODUCTION and therefore revenue has nose dived but the oil is still there, new fields have been discovered to the West, in time the price will rise. 96.5% of UK oil stock lies in Scottish waters (largest oil reserves of any country in Europe) - currently Scotland benefits from an 8.5% (calculated on a population basis)share of UK oil revenue. With Independence the Scottish Treasury would collect 96.5% of that revenue. Even at today's price this would boost the Scottish Budget considerably. With Brexit on the horizon the big finance houses are looking favourably at relocation of HQs to Edinburgh (if Scotland is in the EU) meaning more jobs and tax take whereas at the last IndyRef they were all going to leave. Mark Cairney (surely HE is unbiased) has said he sees no problem with a Scottish Pound tied to Sterling in the short term.

Varian sorry to point out but you cannot remain Scottish, British and European politically (although you will still be all 3 geographically). The choice now is between Scottish and European or Scottish and British.

It's fantastic to see such capable women in action. Nicola Sturgeon and Ruth Davidson have really impressed me and I have always voted Labour. Kezia Dugdale comes over well too.

I love the red suit on the hanger joke!

NS keeps keeps seeming to lose though.

If May gets elected that'll be women running the country. The Pankhursts would be so proud!

Good. Up the women!

Jane, be careful what you wish for --- do you remember that guy, what was his name,,, Boris something.

(before you jump on me, I don't mean it .... or do I ? )

Oh I know GandTea. It just occurred to me that we'd suddenly have all these women so integral to actual decision making as opposed to implementation. Of course this isn't really new. Indira Ghandi, Golda Meir, Angela Merkel and oops Thatcher!

Granny23 I can understand why the Scots (the ones in Scotland) want to be independent, but surely you will want to be completely independent and not tied to Europe in a similar way (probably as much if not more) as you currently are to Britain? Scotland on it's own in Europe as just one of 28(?) will have very little influence. Is it just historical hatred of the English? I'm asking you as you know your stuff!

NfkDumpling I seem to be always reiterating that Scottish People (with the very odd exception) do NOT hate English people. It is the political system, which ensures that no matter how voters in Scotland vote, no matter how good the MPs we send to Westminster are, or how well they represent the views of their constituents, by sheer weight of numbers, the choice of English voters and their representatives will always prevail. It feels a bit like having your younger brother always getting his own way just because he is bigger than you. In matters which have been devolved to the Scottish Parliament the electorate and the MSPs they elect are free to make decisions as to what they perceive to be in the best interests of people living in Scotland within the budget that they have been allocated but 'Power devolved is Power retained' and ultimately that Power lies with the Westminster Parliament, which also has the power to abolish the Scottish Parliament!

Defence and Energy are 2 areas where power has not been devolved to the SP, which has meant that although the public and the Scottish Parliament are by a large majority opposed to having Trident based in Scotland they have no control over this. Another current issue is Fracking where again Scottish opinion is strongly against the practice but Licences have been issued by Westminster and although the SG has placed a moratorium on Fracking and could probably stall or refuse applications under planning laws, a large oil company could appeal via the House of Lords and have that decision overturned.

You may have also read that further Tax Raising powers have been devolved to Scotland but if you read the small print the SG is not allowed to alter the tax bands - so that higher earners pay more and the lower paid pay less - but can only apply an across the board increase which, of course, a centre left Government does not want to do. The most cunning condition, however is a clause which specifies that for every £1 of additional tax revenue generated in Scotland, £1 will be deducted from the annual block grant from the Treasury - leaving tax payers in Scotland paying more tax than anywhere else in the UK but no increase whatsoever in the SG's budget.

As to membership of the EU - an Independent Scotland would be a full partner, with a seat at the top table and right to veto anything they disagreed with. As a nation state they would be entitled to more MEPs than their current 7 as a region of the UK. 62% of voters in Scotland voted to remain in the EU. That percentage would have been higher if EU nationals living and working in Scotland had been allowed to vote.

Must stop now need some ZZZZ

Oh, that tax thing is a nasty twist, crafty b****rs! Actually for the rest we feel exactly the same here in the east. Except we're stuck as we're the same country. Northern England and Devon/CornwallSomerset are the same. Central government have very little to do with us, only tossing the odd well picked bone of funding in our direction. London really is a different country. Actually , with a bit of lateral thinking, perhaps London and the Home Counties should go it alone then the rest of is can stick together!

I do however, deeply, deeply regret the demise of the United Kingdom. We've been together a long time.

As for the EU, I voted out. Had it have still been the original countries it would have been different, but it's been far too unwieldy now for far too long. Money is paid in and vanishes without trace. It was a prototype. I think there's a good chance the whole lot was going to implode in the next ten years or so anyway, we may have just hastened this! Then we can start again. Either that or it will push the lot of them to put their house in order.I think the UK is going to separate with maybe Wales and England sticking together. Hopefully in fifty years time or so a new efficient, open, we'll run Europe will rise!

Apparently England is the second most densely populated country in the world - after Singapore. I foresee that when Scotland is independent and if the anticipated prosperity comes, with England perceived to be in dire straits, there could be a rush of new immigrants and your population will rise considerably. It's a beautiful, safe, honest country and many will want to come. While I look forward to England becoming less influential, quieter and less cluttered, you look to Scotland's growth! The grass as they say.....!

Thank you for taking the time to explain, I didn't know about the tax ploy. We just get taxed!

For all that Granny23 says about the all round wonderfulness of the SNP the majority of us remain unimpressed. The centralising nature of their approach and interference in local areas continues to irritate. The sheer economics of the situation doesn't seem to be accepted by them. SNP most certainly does not represent all of Scotland any more than the Tories represent all of England. They don't even have a majority in the Scottish Parliament any more. I know this will inflame rabid nationalists like Granny23 but her picture of Scotland needs to be challenged and other GNers need to know this.

I have just read that Nicola Sturgeon has praised the contribution of EU migrants and in particular EU students to Scotland. In simple terms can someone explain to me why as an EU citizen initially keen to study at Edinburgh university my English daughter was horrified to realise the discrepancy in the fees system biased towards other EU countries,but demanding higher fees from England,Scotland and Wales? Some United Kingdom.I voted Leave and will be sad to see the break up of the union if it happens, but have lost faith in the overblown,unaccountable organisation it has become.

Sorry meant the EUK has become in that last sentence!

England with a population density of 407 per square km is not the second most densely populated in the world, Nfk Dumpling , but the thirty first according to Wikki.

That is the kind of misinformation that the Leave campaihn used to whip up fear of immigration.

Jane10 Challenge away, but please back up your comments with some facts e.g that when the Scottish Parliament was set up, its half 'first past the post', half PR system was designed so that the chamber would reflect the whole gamut of political allegiance in Scotland. The overall majority for the SNP in 2011 was a fluke, caused by the implosion of the Labour Party in Scotland. At the 2016 election the SNP were a few seats short of an overall majority but as they lost these seats to the pro-indy Greens (not the Conservatives) there remains an overall majority in favour of independence in the Parliament.

Looking forward to our rebuttal

Yours, Granny 23#rabidnationalist

The England being second most densely populated info was around long before the referendum campaign got going varian. And Wiki's list includes 'countries' like the Vatican City and Guernsey - they count self governing dependencies. I agree (having properly checked) that England is not the second most populous country. - but I hope you will agree it is quite crowded!

data.worldbank.org/indicator/EN.POP.DNST

Having started wondering about population densities I found the above. The West Bank and Gaza make me realise we've a long way to go before we have any idea what crowded really means!

Exactly! Especially in Norfolk.

. (Although the Norwich area is growing fast. I fear London has realised we're here! Any proposition of a high speed rail link and I'm claiming asylum in Scotland!