EU - I'm in a quandary

I wish somebody would buy Cameron and Blair a one way ticket on a spaceship. Both seem so arrogant that they don't seem to realise that if they open their mouths, people are likely to think the opposite.

They can afford their own tickets, daphne.

Yes, but they might need some persuasion to buy them and 'help' with boarding the spaceships.

I thought of that as soon as I posted. They like the limelight too much. And they think they are always right.

A lot of it about!

Remind yourself Eirel that other less irritating people are in favour of Remain.
You can take your pick according to your political taste - just about anyone in labour - I've only heard of a couple of Lab. MPs that are campaigning to leave, Then there's Sturgeon and the Scots, Wood and Plaid, the Libdems (what is left of them). Hawkin. Most scientist, economists and all kinds of glamorous people in the arts.
I'm avoiding the TV coverage - not good for the blood pressure.

Actually the TV debate last night was very interesting. I'm still listening to both sides though I have more or less made my mind up that we should vote OUT.

If jobs are to be in short supply it is only because of migration from countries such as Greece, Spain, Italy or Portuglal where unemployment is at record levels. Most immigrants coming here are looking for work, not benefit scroungers. Being in the EU hasn't 'created' jobs for those countries, their ecomonies aren't thriving, not their industries.

Our schools and hospitals are struggling. Nicola Sturgeon said we should be building new schools and hospitals to cope. I agree, BUT iwe can only plan ahead if we know what the UK population will be. It takes many, many years to train hospital doctors and GPs. Teachers are leaving the profession - more than are coming in, and new teachers are not staying long enough.

Unless we can get a grip on numbers, forecast how many school places will be needed, how many patients the NHS can cope with, how many new nurses, doctors, hospital we need, we will always be playing 'catch up'.

Not what I want for my grandchildren or myself in old age.

Oh dear, I don't mind siding with Heseltine and Major but was always uncomfortable to find myself agreeing with Cameron. And now they've wheeled out Bliar. What to do

You make a valid point Elrel, but skimming through the threads there seems to be a growing reliance on "who" is in each "camp", rather than "what" the issues are. Perhaps that is because they/we have run out of things to say about the issues, perhaps it is because it is easier to feel one wants to be on the same "side" as people one respects, perhaps because it is easier to play the man than the ball. If I believe in something, I should not be deterred because someone I may not like holds a similar view - no issue is so black/white, that if they support it and I do not like them, the issue must by definition be wrong. In the same way, just because somebody is in favour, does not make everything 100% OK. It is easy to be swayed by individuals but what is at issue is FACTS.
Remember it is not true that " My enemy's enemy is my friend".
For every person who you would rather not be on the same side as, there will another whose judgement you respect. I have good friends whose opinions I respect and who know what they are talking about - in both camps. And there are others I hear talking tosh equally from sides.
Gove? Blair? Farage? BoJo? Heseltine? DC? John Major? Gisela Stuart? Personal liking and antipathy are not the issue.

True Alea

This debate is not about who, in politics, you admire or dislike (though I do agree that wheeling Blair out is questionable ).

Yep, I have to admit I felt I was pushing it a bit stretching my principles a bit in that particular case.

And the debate has thrown up a few people who I didn't know much about but are good speakers and interesting too.It's ridiculous to play the man not the ball as you say Alea

Wheeling out past PM's is not a good idea though.

I am not interested in the politics or the personalities; as others have said it is facts that are needed. I have looked at supposedly neutral sites and still get different answers; so the simple fact is nobody knows the facts. It is all based on unreliable projections and personal inclination.

The choice to me seems to be that we either vote IN, because the devil we know is better than one we don't in spite of its massive flaws or OUT because, in spite of the fact that we cannot predict exactly what that might mean (because no-one has done it before), we are not prepared to stay in an organisation that is so flawed, in which our power to initiate change is so limited and that is so massively wasteful of money.

The sight of various politicians arguing the toss is unedifying and totally unhelpful. I am leaning in the direction of not voting at all - something that goes against the grain with me in a big way, but it seems the only honest solution.

I think it may be misleading to be told that to Remain means sticking with the familiar I.e. the status quo.
The EU is constantly changing so in fact both options involve the Unknown. So it is not necessarily the "devil you know" as opposed to "the devil you don't know" The question may be, do you believe the UK can lead or influence future changes so as to benefit our country, or are we more likely to be dragged into a political commitment over which we have less and less control. Is the future of the EU viable or is it on a collision course and would we be better getting out while we can.
I wonder if DC has weakened our hand by his ineffectual "renegotiations" and personally have reservations about HIS ability or standing with fellow member states to keep us in a strong position.
Lots of questions, alas, no answers.

I do agree about Cameron - his negotiations were indeed ineffectual and increase anxiety about our ability to have proper say over the use of our money.

I am concerned about the lack of say we have; and also the lack of true democracy in the EU - which is inevitable with such a large unwieldy organisation.

I think that if there significant changes to any EU treaty which did involve UK changing its role in the EU there would be a referendum on that point.
Maybe we should be looking at what some of the remaining EU countries are saying will be their stance if the EU wishes to Exit! They have more idea of what they will agree to or not allow than Boris, Gove etc etc. and from the perspective of what they have already come up with as their stance it does not look a pretty sight!!! They do want the UK to Remain but also see that if it votes to leave there will repercussions with the community left so they wish to send out a stern message about leaving - this in itself signals bad vibes for the UK.
I realise the Brexit camp will see this as some form of scaremongering but these facts have not been widely published in the UK so can hardly be declared that - I saw a link from an EU site.

I finn that one more indication of our powerlessness within the EU - that they can effectively "threaten" us over the idea of leaving. It sounds a bit like domestic abuse. I hate that.

I agree Luckygirl with your last two posts.

Last 3 posts!

Likewise, luckyg.

The problems with the NHS and education are nothing to do with the EU. They are to do with this government's ideology.
Both the NHS and education benefit from immigration.
The government wants to privatise both. Whether we stay in or leave, the people in charge of the government will still go ahead with their ideological destruction of both.
This referendum is a distraction from the problems besetting the NHS and academisation of schools.

So all this hot air is being generated over a red herring????

Oh no they aren't -oh yes they are!
Welcome to the EU pantomime- ugly sisters galore, ogres, principle boys, dames -they're all there. Send in the clowns -oops, beg your pardon, they already have!
Vote remain-you know it makes sense

Oh yeah, we're all distracted. Nobody's noticing the bloody incessant government interference with schools that's been going on since I was a kid. Nobody's noticed how hard it is to get a GP appointment in some places. Nobody's noticed there aren't enough doctors.

You are funny sometimes, DJ

All together now, Outers

'Oh no it doesn't!'