EU - I'm in a quandary

@Jalima

Don't read them! ~lol~

PS. I think Frank Field has gone a bit nutty. I've never thought much of Kate Hoey or John Mann, who has shown serious misjudgment when using parliamentary privilege. I think it's great there are people in Parliament like Denis Skinner, but I don't (and never have) agreed with him much of the time.

I don't take Johnson's views seriously, because I think he's just out for himself, but I have followed Gove, IDS, Fox, Farage and Grayling for years. They have produced publications, stating how they would like to see the state run. They've said very little about it in this campaign, but I seriously fear that they would get their way if they 'win'.

PS. Hope you didn't read that, Jalima.

www.hopenothate.org.uk/educational/factfinders/images/find-the-facts-eu-2016-06-5.png

Ps hopefully this link will work.

I'm only saying Jalima that because I normally disagree with Gove and Johnson - and I've been disagreeing vehemently with Farage for years.
So it would be a surprise to encounter any issue on which these three were united and with which I would find myself agreeing.
Here's a list of things that could change, from the Guardian. I had not thought of the ones about divorce and child abduction before.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jun/07/what-will-happen-if-uk-leaves-eu-ten-ways-life-could-change?CMP=share_btn_fb

POGS, have you read everything about the referendum on www.fulfact.org
Lots of neutral information on there, fact checking all the rubbish spouted on both sides.
I imagine if you start now you could read it all before the referendum.

DD

Of course they will continue but as usual you missed the point to my post.

I gave two scenarios that elude to a similar view spouted from both IN/OUT campaigners to show that some comments have little point to them as they are both scenarios that can't be assumed as the only view .

There are posts/comments/debates/interviews that make sound bites/propaganda/political bias not worth the paper it's written on or the time we take to listen to them because there is a perfectly acceptable alternative to the single minded view.

That's why I believe unless you only see the one side , have made your mind up it's difficult to assertain the truth to make a decision.

So what exactly is the point of your post?

Durhamjen

You know I read Full Fact we have discussed this before.

I have a lot of time for Will Moy actually. He gave a very good question and answer time with another chap , can't remember who, I think on Sky News or BBC News.

The problem I have is the narrow remit that has hounded the questioning of those in both Campaigns. I would like to know more information than Workers Rights, Immigration etc but the media are obsessed with the same old questions that have been done to death. There is no inspiration from either side that is making me get to a decision.

DD

For the last time!

Have you or have you not clicked that my post of 18.12 is responding to a post from Jess M at 17.56.?

If you or anybody else cannot see the connection and the reason for the two scenarios then I'm sorry it just won't sink in. End of.

www.globaljustice.org.uk/resources/eu-referendum-radical-case-remain-europe

www.globaljustice.org.uk/sites/default/files/files/resources/eu_referendum_briefing_web_v2.pdf

The EU isn't just about us; it's about all the other countries that have joined as well.
Maybe that's the crux of the matter.
If we left, the whole of the EU could fail. I do not think that is worth it. We are better together, for justice, for health, for lots of reasons.
Because we have decided already that we want to stay in does not mean that our views are single minded.

What do you want, POGS? What questions have not been answered by someone already?

@pogs

No need to be quite so rude!

I can't help it if you don't explain yourself very succinctly.

The point I was making was that, like it or not, we live in a world of global finance (big corporates, etc). Nothing is going to change that any time soon, so we (the UK) need to find a way of living with it and making the best of the situation.

The EU is more committed to tackling corporate tax evasion, fraud and generally being stitched up than the UK government. It is certainly in a better situation to do so than the UK trying to go it alone.

By the way, I am a supporter of Global Justice Now, to save you asking.

pogs yes the whole of the eu would fail so what does that tell you
1 they need our cash to carry on
2 the other countries can't wait to get out

DJ

In reply to your post.

What will the effect be in the near future if Greece defaults?

What will the effect be over the Italian Banking System which is in trouble?

What has happened to Schengen in countries that now have re instated border controls between them ?

What will be the likely effect if Merkel loses the German elections in 2017?

I could go on. My point is staying in or leaving I think there are problems brewing in the EU but they are not being discussed.


I get fed up with the spin such the £1 has fallen because of Brexit but the truth is so had/has currencies in other countries because of poor output data from the USA and China. The FTSE has nose dived because of Brexit but so did the DAX, CAC etc. Brexit probably was not wholely to blame but the spin is believed.

The list could go on.

The answer to all your questions is probably nobody knows because they haven't happened before. There is no mechanism in the EU to kick out any country. Greece could leave voluntarily, but why would they?
Any country can print its own money. It's called quantitative easing, so both Greece and Italy could do that to get people back working, to get money moving again.

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2015/07/16/jubilee-qe-for-greece/

Why would leaving the EU solve any of those problems?
If we left the EU and it collapsed, we would have nobody to trade with. We'd really be on our own then.

POGS Greece is waiting for the next bale out
The countries who have reinstated boarders are only being left until after the referendum.
The problems won't be discussed while the referendum is so near, there is lock down in a lot of the media until then.

DJ

Of course nobody 'knows'. The same as nobody 'knows' what will factually happen if we stay in or out even they though they believe they have all the answers. We are all doing our best to come to our own conclusions.

The point is the referendum questions are sticking with the same old same old questions that we now know how each campaign will answer. There is little to no imagination, broadening of understanding to give the voter more information , reasons to question , it is stifling for the likes of myself trying to come to a decision.

I am struggling with a handful of posters who repeatedly do not understand my style of posting, I have noted I am in good company with this problem however. I hope this is not the feeling of all GN posters or I'm doomed.

Sorry but I do not see your problem. Most people, I would think, do not look so deeply into things.
I find fullfact and theconversation have quite enough information on them.

theconversation.com/uk/eu-referendum-2016

Of course we have the same old questions. They are important to the majority of people. That's why Brexit look like winning at the moment, because they are playing on the fears of those who do not want immigrants in this country, and that's a lot of the voters.

We all have to have our own leap of faith on 23rd.

I have just been sent an email about a Brexit poster which has a photo of Corbyn on it saying vote with Jeremy.
Now that's something to get hot under the collar about as far as I am concerned. I hope he sues.

electionsetc.com/2016/06/09/combined-eu-referendum-forecast-update-2/

theconversation.com/is-europe-over-56777

This mentions Schengen, but it is written by a professor in California, so not directly affected.

DJ

Given the vast implication of the referendum I find your comment to me rather interesting.

"Sorry but I do not see your problem. Most people, I would think, do not look so deeply into things'.

I really don't know which way to take it to be honest but I guess thanks for trying.

"Brexit looks like winning at the moment" I believe there has been a surge from vote out from Labour heartlands, the traditional Labour voter who feels they have been ignored. Andy Burnham has said their campaign needs to be less about Hampstead and more about Hull. Watching Eddie Izzard on QT last Thursday, as much as I like him as a comedian and for all his charity work, I do think that he is absolutely the wrong type of person to put on such a programme just before such a crucial vote, I almost felt sorry for Hilary Benn who was facing a three pronged assault from the Brexist panelists because EI's, clearly heartfelt, but very naive and shoutyjuvenile approach was not cutting it with the audience at all, in fact after one of his rants someone shouted "shut up". The Independent even suggested that he should be kept away from the campaigning altogether. I know he has political aspirations but he simply didn't address the concerns of those who were either sitting on the fence or who intended to vote out.

It was interesting watching a debate last night when there was mention of JCB, who are 'Outers' [and quite local to me]. The 'In' member of the panel [I don't know his name but he was a Sikh businessman and spoke a lot of sense] said that it was ok for JCB because it was a large, rich company that had had a lot of money with which to open up world trading markets years ago and that businesses such as his did not have that sort of money and were very dependant on their EU markets. Not mentioned, but my own opinion is that JCB's are needed worldwide anyway. They did make a lot of people redundant a while back which, for the main employer in that area was disastrous for the local people.

Both make fair points and they are speaking as they find.

Laura Kuenssberg did a very good EU program for the BBC.(so glad sense reigned over that stupid petition). She went to Wyke Farm cheese producers in Somerset and a hovver craft manufacturer in Kent. Wyke Farm want to stay IN, the hovver craft factory want OUT. Wyke Farm deal heavily with the EU and it benefits them but the hovver craft manufacturer looses business because of EU restrictions. The latter gave an example of an multi thousand pound order they couldn't sign up to with Brazil.

My problem is Why? The EU constrains the 28 countries from doing trade on one hand but doing a good deal with the other hand.

If we Brexit it will be the choice of the UK people but we have got where we are because of the ridiculous length of time the EU takes to decide on things and then you have to have 28 countries all agree. The EU is not in so many ways Progressive it is Regressive and another point that begs the question better In or Out.

Take the mantra it has taken 7 years for the EU to do a deal with Canada, Why? Would it really take a trade deal between two countries the same length of time?. No idea but hells bells some heads would need knocking by the so called political elite if it did. Where is the get up and go, the common sense approach to trading, the optimism not pessimism
from countries leadership to build and prosper.