Ken Livingstone

Tricia, I have no idea how many people are anti Semitic m perhaps has many whi are anti .islam

What has annoyed me about this is the hypocrisy , leave out the murders of the victims at Charlie Hebdo, there can be no excuse for that, but all the talk that they died for freedom of speech, they drew a cartoon of Mohammad as a donkey , if that was acceptable then freedom of speech must apply to all

Also ,

America blew up a hospital in Syria and said sorry it was an error

Israel blew up a hospital and said there could have been terrorists in there even though they had been told by the UN it was a shelter for women and children from Israeli attacks

Russia blew up a hospital in Syria - war crime

Since many here state clearly that they do not read or listen to links- here is what Gerald Kaufman said in the House of Commons:

(after explaining that his grandmother was shot in bed by the nazis):

'my grand-mother didn't die to provide cover for Israeli soliders to murder Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza. The present Israeli Government ruthlessly and cynicalla exploit the guilt among Gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust- as justification over the murder of Palestinians.
The implications are that Jewish lives are precious but the lives of (Muslim) Palestinians do not count.'

if anyone here says that, from someone born and bred as an Orthdox Jew, this is 'racist' then I have no words for them.

GK is a bitter person with a twisted mind is my opinion.
The bit about ruthlessly exploiting the guilt etc etc just isn't true.
And granjura - I'm not entering into an argument with you about it, learnt from the past.

This is long, but very intelligent, commentary on recent UK events from an American Jewish academic.
www.opendemocracy.net/uk/jamie-stern-weiner-norman-finkelstein/american-jewish-scholar-behind-labour-s-antisemitism-scanda

I don't know why you think Kaufman is a bitter person or why you think his mind is twisted and I won't go there, as you don't want to.

I also don't know whether the Israeli government deliberately exploits guilt, but I do think many non-Jews DO feel guilty about the holocaust. It's part of the German psyche and is still strong - understandably.

I certainly know of people who will quite openly criticise Muslims (and not for real reasons such as mysogony, etc), but will go quiet and seem embarrassed if anybody criticises Israel.

Thanks for that excellent link Jess- and yes, great post Daphne.

Truly don't get the 'bitter and twisted' either. I'd imagine anyone of his generation whose family has suffered so massively and cruelly at the hands of the Nazis would be deeply affected by it - but his experiences make what he says so much more real and poignant to me. Same with Finkelstein.

For a change I find myself in complete agreement with Anniebach!

There are a number of Holocaust survivors who speak out against the atrocities meted out by Israeli forces. There are many Israeli Jews who are against the governments policy towards Palestine. They are not all "bitter and twisted" surely?

As someone with Palestinian heritage I am not in denial about some of the horrific terrorist attacks that have taken place under the name of Palestine and neither do I condone or justify them even if I can understand why some felt "justified" in carrying them out. I would still say it was wrong to use violence.

It feels to me that some Jews find it hard to accept that sometimes terrible things have been /are being done by Jews in Israel.

The Israeli government uses the argument that it is justified to use overwhelming force to 'protect' its borders. The Palestine's military power is minimal compared to Israel. To shoot to kill civilians , to cheer at dying/dead Palestinians is a daily event for many Israelis, to humiliate and make daily living difficult by controlling access/utilities /medical aid etc. to encroach, bit by bit, on Palestinian land, to deny their is a Palestinian history and culture is a deliberate government policy to dehumanise the Palestinians in the eyes of the Israeli electorate. It has been done before.

What a breath of fresh air, truth and integrity that link is.

I suppose Penstemmon that its plain old bullying.

JessM Thank you for such an informative link. I think there was a criticism earlier of link posting but I have found many of the links very informative and definitely do add something to the debate, and am grateful that someone takes the trouble to do it. Wish I knew how.

Yes a very good link - but I wouldn't go as far as apologising to Naz Shah wink.
There's so much to read, not just on the Ken Livingstone issue ( I've always admired him), but on the history of Israel, of the Holocaust, and and of our Labour Party.
My mind is undecided, I try to see all sides.
I'm reading a book at the moment called "Frauen", by Alison Owings. Interviews with German women who lived through WW2, their views of Hitler, their horrific experiences, and attitudes to the Holocaust.

Thanks JessM that was an interesting, well informed link. Thanks also to Penstemmon's post today at 16.35 which states what some here are denying, that many Israeli's condemn the actions of their government towards the Palestinian people. I also appreciate Penstemmon's comments condemning some of the horrific terrorist attacks that have taken place in the name of the Palestinian people.

To suggest as Anniebach did earlier in this discussion, that no one can now condemn Israel for its treatment of Palestinians is plain wrong.

If a Jew condemns the actions of Israel they will be called anti Semitic ?

I haven't looked at any British newspapers recently but I wouldn't mind betting that there is plenty of comment about the always tiresome remarks of Ken Livingstone and putative institutional anti-Semitism in the Labour Party but probably very little about some other massively important matters, such as the "Panama Papers" and offshore hedge funds. Of course, these are not such colourful stories and require some effort and understanding on the part of journalists to write them.

Tiresome remarks is a good word to describe some of his words absent

Someone up-thread said they admired him and someone else said that he was personable? I think.
Well, he is personable and even charming - or plausible - but in my opinion he is Machiavellian.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/03/russian-embezzlers-went-on-spending-spree-in-uk-mps-told

Involving Panama papers, absent.

Please Anniebach, give it a rest. Read the various posts and comments here providing a more balanced view of the views of many Israeli's and members of the British Jewish community .

I haven't seen anyone suggesting its anti semitic to criticise the actions of the Israeli government towards the Palestinians. there are several posts that also criticise some of the horrific terrorist attacks perpetrated in the name of the Palestinian people. I'm sure that as in all such conflicts, ordinary people on both sides would prefer some kind of negotiated settlement and hopefully, that's what will happen.

A good link JessM, very thought-provoking.

The thought that I am left with is whether one sees Jewishness as a religion or as a race; how many Jews identify with Israel or with their country of birth?

^ I'm sure that as in all such conflicts, ordinary people on both sides would prefer some kind of negotiated settlement and hopefully, that's what will happen^
Yes Iam64 and I am sure many Israelis do not condone the actions of their government and wish for peace.

Pretty sure Jewishness is both a religion and a race. And all identify with Israel.

Im, please do not tell me to read posts and I have the same rights to post my views as you.

If I join a discussion I read every post , I read them because I choose too not because I am told to.

A Jew does not have to,practice the faith but if their mother is a Jew the child is , some grntiles choose to convert to Judaism

The Chief Rabbi has launched an attack on Corbyn and the Labour Party . I now hope either the Arch Bishop of Canterbury or the Arch Bishop of Wales will speak out against the atrocities carried out by Israel - think more chance of seeing flying pigs