Anti Semitism in Labour Party and Universities.

Successive Israeli politicians have stated that they want to get rid of all Palestinians and to put an end to a state of Palestine. That is all documented and on the internet too. We can all choose to just look at and quote bits that we like. I would post links but am babysitting and only have my phone. Also if it is not important to look at Palestine as it stood at the end of WW1 as it is apparently 'irrelevant' why do Zionists go back to OT times to back their claim on the land My grandmother was born in 1900 in Palestine to a family that had lived there for generations. Why are their rights less valid than a Russian Jew who arrives in Israel in the 1960s? Jews Muslims and Christians lived together in Palestine and co-existed until the rise of Zionism. I also really object to the idea that people are attacking Venus ..I am not. I am putting forward a different view point as the child of a displaced Palestinian. I do have close family who have suffered hugely at the hands of Israeli politics. I do not believe I have been agressive or unpleasant..or vitriolic..on this thread at all. So please recognise reasoned debate and be open to the possibility that Israel is not the underdog but is in fact an aggressor in this situation. There have been wicked acts perpetrated by both sides..but sadly the upperhand is Israel's.

Do they not rose? the evidence in Gaza is that they are doing this very successfully even if they have not actually said this is their intention.

There are always tragedies on both sides too.

We all know there are two sides to every story, but Israel is not the side who want to totally destroy and deny a right to exist.

I am sure they would! Talk is easy, but not if you live there.

I didn't say that the Palestinians situation is entirely their fault. I don't make up these facts, they are there are on the internet for anyone to see. Are you suggesting that I'm making up these figures and information? I can assure you that I'm not! I'm not puling out these facts from thin air.

But is it acceptable to send rockets and other forms of destruction into Israel? If it wasn't for the protection from the Domes, Israel would be in ruins and many more of its citizens would be maimed or killed Is that alright then? You have no idea what its like to live in an 'oppressing' country if you think that Israel is one. Why do you think that America supports Israel? Because if Israel were to fall and come into the hands of the real oppressers, like Hamas, chaos would rule, and then the people would know what oppression is like, and so would the whole of the western world. Israel would be back in the middle ages, and women would suffer the most. Be careful what you wish for.

Israel has a right to defend herself in whatever way she sees fit as would any other democratic country. If this country was constantly under attack and you had to spend nights in shelters, maybe you would see things differently.

Sorry WW2

Venus Amnesty Internatonal highlights and protests about breeches of human rights all over the world and has a long and very proud history of taking action to deal with this. So you will forgive me if I choose to believe them rather than someone who it appears has a more than usual knowledge of the oppressing country and may have a rather biased view of the situation. I am perfectly happy to acknowledge that an Israeli state was necessary after WW1 and to understand that the methods used to establish this were sometimes brutal. But I cannot ignore the horrendous ill treatment of Palestinians and suggesting that the situation is entirely their fault is unacceptable.

Alea, the remarks were aimed at my posts and what I had said. I thought it was somewhat one sided if I did not reply to what the posters were saying. Of course a debate can continue without my presence, but when the remarks are aimed specifically on what I had said, I decided that I had to reply.

Trisher, I'm being drawn into this again, but let me give you a few figures.

180,000 Palestinian citizens enter Israel to receive medical treatment. The medical officer is quoted as saying, 'The treatment of the Palestinian population is first and foremost a moral and professional obligation for every one of us.'

Arabs have equal votes, infact one of the few places in the Middle East where Arab women may vote.

Arabs hold government posts including the deputy mayor of Tel Aviv amongst many others.

More then 3000,000 Arab children attend Israeli schools.

Israel expects soldiers to uphold the highest moral standards and if not the appropriate action is taken. All cases of mistreatment are taken extremely seriously.

I think I must defend what I've posted, as it's somewhat unfair to post remarks after I said I would not engage in further discussion

Just as a matter of principle why should a discussion be curtailed bcause one person has withdrawn from it?
It wouldn't be the first time a member backs out of a debate but may or may not go on following what the others are saying and indeed have every right to say.

As you also say Venus, it is ridiculous to go on about what happened after WW1! Lots of awful things happened all over the world between the wars, awful things happened during WW2. The state of Israel was set up in 1948, as a safe haven for Jews wherever they originated from, yet again after more dreadful things on all sides. It is post 1967 that is relevant in today's discussions, not reminiscing about events way back in the mists of time.

Excellent post Venus, and absolutely spot on as you have described it exactly as it is! Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, and one of the few countries in the world that truly defends its population, if it doesn't, for sure no one else will, which is the truth of the matter. A good proportion of Arabs prefer to work in Israeli occupied Jersusalem as security is so good, they feel safer and better protected. Jews have such a long history of brutal persecution, they can hardly be blamed for taking precautions against it happening again, particularly against organizations/countries that have vowed to destroy them. Perhaps if Hammas were to change this particularly unpleasant goal Israel could well relax their vigilance against this group; until this happens(?!!) they simply can't afford to whatever the rest of the world thinks imo.

Thank you for your support, TriciaF and rosearered.

I see very little point in going over what occured at the end of WW1. It is what happened recently, not what happened in the past. The fact remains that Israel returned a good deal of land that the won post 1967. Why bang on about what happened earlier, it's simply not relevant.

Penstemmon, please look back on page 5, 4th post down, where I explained that the Arabs were offered by the British their own state. I don't propose to type it all out again here.

You will understand why I said what I did, JessM if you read that post too.

Again, I will repeat, it is up to Hamas to accept the existence of the State of Israel and not to attempt to wipe it off the face of the earth. If that ever happens, perhaps there can be peace. I sincerely hope, one day, that will happen.

Overview of the situation from Amnesty International
In the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, Israeli forces committed unlawful killings of Palestinian civilians, including children, and detained thousands of Palestinians who protested against or otherwise opposed Israel’s continuing military occupation, holding hundreds in administrative detention. Torture and other ill-treatment remained rife and were committed with impunity. The authorities continued to promote illegal settlements in the West Bank, and severely restricted Palestinians’ freedom of movement, further tightening restrictions amid an escalation of violence from October, which included attacks on Israeli civilians by Palestinians and apparent extrajudicial executions by Israeli forces. Israeli settlers in the West Bank attacked Palestinians and their property with virtual impunity. The Gaza Strip remained under an Israeli military blockade that imposed collective punishment on its inhabitants. The authorities continued to demolish Palestinian homes in the West Bank and inside Israel, particularly in Bedouin villages in the Negev/Naqab region, forcibly evicting their residents. They also detained and deported thousands of African asylum-seekers, and imprisoned Israeli conscientious objectors.
The facts speak for themselves!
And this is from a human rights organisation that is entirely neutral.

For all sorts of reasons, I cannot continue this discussion.

But I do urge all to do their own research on the loss of Palestianian lands since the end of WW1 - map after map show clear evidence.

Glad you returned Venus and that the unwarranted post attacking you was deleted by the mods.The Jewish people in Israel have every right to be there and to defend themselves.

I think I must defend what I've posted, as it's somewhat unfair to post remarks after I said I would not engage in further discussion.

After repelling two huge Arab invasions Israel was left with more territory. However, Israel had no intention of expanding its borders - its intention was to trade land for peace.

In 1974 Israel returned some territories to Syria that it captured defending its borders in 1967 and 1973 and in 1979 they returned the entire Sinai Penisula, a mass of land rich in oil, with Jewish settlements and three times the size of pre-67 Israel.

In September 1983, Israel withdrew from large areas of Lebanon to positions south of the Awali River. In 1985, it completed withdrawal from Lebanon, except for a narrow security zone just north of the Israeli border. That too was abandoned, unilaterally, in 2000.

After signing peace agreements with Palestinians, and a treaty with Jordan, Israel agreed to withdraw from most of the territory in the West Bank captured from Jordan in 1967. A small area was returned to Jordan, and more than 40% was ceded to the Palestinian Authority.

As I said, finally, all Israeli troops and civillians were evacuated from the Gaza Strip and the territory was turned over to the control of the Palestinian Authority. In addition four communties in the West Bank covering an area larger than the entire Gaza Strip was also evacuated.

In total as previously stated, Israel has withdrawn from approximately 94% of the territory it captured in 1967, which is 70% of the territory it once held.

Grandura, when fighting a war, it is usual to capture territory, as that is what the other side are trying to do. Do you think the Palestinians would return land if the situation was reversed?

JessM, I don't have to convince myself. The facts speak for themselves. The key to all this problem is for Hamas to accept the existance of the State of Israel and declare that their mission in life is not to try and wipe it out. Israel will continue to defend its borders and protect its people until then.

Just to say that I admire Venus for standing almost on her own in this topic, and arguing so calmly. It's an emotional subject which keeps coming up in different forms.
I've been offline today due to a car accident but agree with all she's said.
It seems that Israel, including all Jews and Zionists, is judged by different standards than those of any other nation. So perhaps antisemitism is different from other types of racial prejudice.

It will be enough to restore their property and lands that were taken illegally and enable a self determining state to be established.

Venus your post earlier was breathtaking. Referring to Palestinians:

"Whatever they are given, it will never be enough"

I'm afraid that is how I see the state of Israel who have expanded their territory, taking land that belonged to Palestinians.

No idea how you manage to convince yourself that the reverse is true.

Of course there is backstabbing in both Tory & Labour camps.... and the opposite sides will always enjoy the spectacle and try to make capital out of it. It was ever thus. Deliberate misinformation ie lies are not nice though and it has been known for the propaganda machines to manufacture situations to detract from their home problems

Thanks for acknowledging that:

the territory it captured in 1967

As there seems to be an anti-this and anti-that process going on here, I would like to refer you to this web site of an organisation that seems to be gaining ground on American campuses.

Oh dear, I did, of course mean desert as in deserted!!!!!! My grrrr got the better of me!!!!!!