Richard III The poem. Carol Ann Duffy.

I was going to comment on the poem as a piece of lovely and poignant poetry but there doesn't seem much point!

And just to say that Carol Ann Duffy went to the same school as me.
But not at the same time, which is a bit like Eric Morecambe saying he played all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order .....

Henry 111, Richard 11 and Henry V1th came to the throne two as children one as a baby, and no one overthrew or murdered them in their minority! These two Princes should have been perfectly safe. Edward 1Vth clearly entrusted Richard with his son's care and that son was grievously betrayed by the very person who had been singled out as his Protector during his minority, long before Tudor propaganda got to work.

I'm with you Nelliemoser I don't really think those boys would have stood a chance who ever was in power and there are many loose ends that have never been explained. And I really liked the poem!

I love the poem.

Now you know why I opted out of history at school - I have quite a low threshold for wars and beheading!

As a consequence I am left indifferent to the Richard goings-on.

My loss, I guess you will say, but my life seems complete without it.

The above are of course actual facts and nothing to do with Tudor propaganda! When Edward was told of his half brothers arrest, he protested but in vain, and then according to chronicles, he burst into tears. He was a highly educated and intelligent boy so perhaps he suddenly realised what danger he was in. Who knows poor lad, the uncle who should have protected him was in fact working against him. According to Dr Argent (spelling) who visited Edward regularly in the tower, the Prince spent more and more time at prayer, convinced that he was imminently to meet his maker. I wonder why he thought that?!!!

The on the spot execution of Lord Hastings and the untimely arrest and 'hasty' trial and immediate execution of Earl Rivers (Edward Vth saw Rivers being taken for execution from the window of what had now been come their prison) The movement of the younger Prince under threat, the subsequent c
lose confinement of those two children does not look like the act of an uncle with your best interests at heart! I think were Richard alive today, these acts alone would make him a major suspect. He may well have regretted having to murder them, but he's the number one suspect for me!

nigglynellie
But that is all speculation and circumstantial evidence. Can anyone find any proper evidence on which a court could convict?
"Innocent until proven Guilty" is the central principle of UK justice.

After Bosworth history began to be written by the Tudors and they wrenot averse to using their spin doctors. They could tell whatever story they wanted the public to hear.

The only point I am making here is that any such claims about Richards guilt are impossible to prove. Speculation is all that can be done.

Quite frankly I find it completely inconceivable that Richard had absolutely no knowledge of the fate of his two nephews. This was the same man who without trial beheaded (murdered) Lord Hastings the Princes most trusted ally, the same fate was meted out to their half brother Earl Rivers, with only the vestige of a trial, both on trumped up charges. This was the same Richard who incarcerated those children into the depths of the tower after a failed rescue attempt. The previous engagement to Lady Talbot was suddenly the confession of a very old Priest that curiously no one else knew about! I wonder why this old man suddenly felt the need to 'tell all'!! It all fits so conveniently!! The same Richard who 'kidnapped' the younger Prince from sanctuary,after threats to remove him forceably. Why would he want to do that?!!! He almost certainly had them murdered, what on earth else could he do with them?! Of course this is what happened to deposed monarchs in those days, but even by medieval standards the murder of two totally innocent children was considered very shocking. Illegitimacy could easily be revoked as happened when Henry V11th married their sister!! so had he let the Princes live he would for the whole of his reign been almost certainly plagued with insurrection, and in the end they would have to have been killed no doubt on a trumped up charge like poor Edward of Warwick twenty odd years later, and of course Jane Grey, even later. Yes Richard was a good administrator and would have made an enlightened king, except two young lives stood in his way, ( more than those if you count their sisters) and like others they had to be cleared out of the way, permanently! All the jamboree around this man is very misplaced, and purely for financial exploitation and nothing else.

Nigglynellie. he was no more morally suspect than any other monarch of his day. The two Tudor kings who followed were a lot more brutal.

There is very little hard evidence to suggest he was responsible for the death of his nephews.

He had the misfortune to come to power at the end of a long period of a bitter, almost tribal civil war. They were dangerous times and no ruler could afford to let down their guard for potential plots by would be usurpers.

Richard was widely respected as a reforming law maker who did a lot
to support fairness in the legal system.
see below.

www.richardiiiboarandbanner.com/richard_iii_lawmaker.html

Quite frankly I thought the whole charade was a load of sentimental rubbish. I can certainly understand that Richard or anyone else for that matter is deserving of a Christian burial/internment, but all that parading around the streets, the hearse, the flag waving, and to crown(!!) it all the modern national anthem was nothing short of cringe worthy!! You can see why Leicester were so keen to keep him, when it brought in the the tourists with much needed revenue, and will continue to do so, (York has enough architecture and history already to keep up the tourist/financial flow) but apart from being a blatant money raising exercise under the guise of respect and solemnity to the point of turning this morally suspect monarch into a latter day saint, it was, well, YUK!!!

Beautiful.. and typical of Duffy's amazing grasp on English prose. The craftsmanship can't be faulted. I won't be listening to an audio recording though ..... I've posted on the Writer's Room on another thread which seems to have crossed