After those ridiculous posters

jings, and others, I think you would understand what we're getting at if similar posters were put up requiring segregation in a public place on the grounds of skin colour. The principle is the same here.

every small symbol of oppression reinforces and normalises the very real oppression that women all over the world experience.

Well said.

Are women-only keep fit or swimming sessions discriminatory? Segregated changing rooms? Lavatories? Hospital wards?

Are women-only keep fit or swimming sessions discriminatory?

Personally, if men are not offered the same, I would say yes.

Segregated changing rooms? Lavatories? Hospital wards?

I would say no due to very nature of those setting which involve, to varying degrees, nudity and compromise of dignity (which is why we tend not to have a row of toilets open to view and changing rooms tend to be sole occupancy cubicles and hospital beds (on wards) have curtain to allow privacy.

The link I previously posted said "while the law allows segregation by gender in premises used for religious purposes, it was not permissible in an academic meeting or a lecture open to the public."

As the street is open to the public and not a premises it was illegal to segregate men and women, even those of their religious faith.

I've been asking myself the same questions, lily. I agree with what holly says: if the segregation is to supply privacy for intimate moments, then it is acceptable. Really, if nudity or sexuality is the issue, then providing privacy applies to everyone whatever their gender. Some hospitals have mixed wards. So long as privacy is maintained where needed, that shouldn't be a problem.

I agree about the gym or swimming sessions too. I don't think there should be one-gender sessions anywhere public.
I suppose private clubs can do what they like but the Royal and Ancient Golf Club at St Andrews has recently opened its doors to female members, which is good and about time.

No Bags. Meaningless segregation would be a different thing entirely. You have to understand the roots of a religion. Roots that go back centuries. However, it is not your business, or mine, to understand in this instance. These Jewish women are not being harmed and are happy living within their religion.

Again, live and let live.

And stop trying to dominate these particular other women. It's still a free country, within certain bounds.

The remark about skin colour is a bit silly tbh. Think about it.

Btw absent so glad you feel you feel you can give your blessing to the way people of other religions dress. Wouldn't do to appear bigoted would it.

I bet the Orthodox Jewish gentlemen are mightily relieved too.

And in the news this morning, an El Al flight held up for many hours because Haredim on board would not sit next to women...

How do you know the Jewish women in question are happy in their religion, jings? How could you know that? You can't. The only person you can say that about is yourself.

The segregation we're talking about appears meaningless to me, as well as patronising—as if women couldn't decide for themselves where it is appropriate to walk on a public street while a religious procession is going on.

How do women who aren't in this Jewish sect manage to make such decisions? I presume they weren't banned from the street while the procession was happening.

That's not the point, though. The purpose of a separate route for the women members of the religion concerned was so that they wouldn't accidentally touch or be touched by a male of their sect who they're not closely related to.

That's part of their religion. Yes, they could have had posters instructing the men where to walk as well, or instead of...

As for understanding ancient customs keeping adult men from accidentally brushing against or touching a woman... Good Grief! if you think I need more 'understanding' of such ridiculous ideas. I understand them to be utterly ridiculous in terms of modern human beings living in a modern civilisation where women and men are perfectly capable in normal circumstances of defending their own personal space and, in any case, where normal people don't invade the space of others if they can possibly help it.

It's not a problem that needs a rule that can delay a flight by eleven hours!

Crossed posts again. That's what comes of adding second thoughts...

Crossed posts, ana. Why is anyone supposed to respect that part of that particular religion? Even most Jews don't respect it. If they did they'd all keep to those rules. The majority don't.

I don't respect ridiculous ideas.

And the majority ignore such rules because such rules are completely unnecessary and only really for (usually male) control freaks.

Jewish women can, and sometimes do, walk away from their religion in this country. It's a free country. (I think I've already said that)

As for the flight - nothing to do with this. Should have made the booking more carefully. No patience with that. (why didn't the plane just go without him? )

And I don't think you "need more understanding". It's none of your business.

If it's in a public place it is my business.

Re those ultra-orthodox Jews causing problems in an aeroplane, someone has sensibly suggested that they pay for two, or even three seats and then they wouldn't have a problem.

BTW, jings, you said earlier that I did have to understand the roots of the religion. Make your mind up

No-one who is oppressed by a misogynistic religion is really free. The people who choose to walk away from their religion do not, I think, belong to ultra-orthodox minority sects. I'm happy to be wrong about that but an analogy with victims of domestic abuse is running through my mind, and the difficulties they often have in effecting an escape.

I didn't mean you specifically! I meant, if you're going to have a go at anybody - religion or otherwise really - it's a good idea to get the whole picture. And maybe a bit of understanding wouldn't go amiss.

I'm giving up now. We're never gonna get anywhere!

I don't think one can realistically expect understanding from those who don't believe in any sort of religion. Tolerance of other people's beliefs, at best perhaps.