Anti-Jewish double standards

Penstemmon.

I have absolutely no reason to give you a personal reply because my post was not directed at you.! However I will because you deserve one for making posts that I understand come from your heart.

Only you will know if you are ant-jewish or not it is certainly not for me to say or consider. I was making an observation how I see things in general, not how I interpret any single posters comments.

As for resulting to the age old comment of 'Am I not supposed to voice my opinion' I think that question is used when a poster may want a confrontation and I for one do not want that. It will suffice to say I think every GN has a right to voice an opinion, including myself.

Here is a very good article by Daniel Finkelstein. There are some telling paragraphs such as this (my underlining):

Talking about going back to "...the 1967 borders. Because there was a time when Israel lived within those borders, wasn’t there? It lived within them before 1967. And what happened? They had to fight successive wars, in 1948, 1967 and then again in 1973 to be allowed to live inside the borders. It was during the last two wars that it took the land as buffers against invasion. The war against Israel is not caused by the occupation. The occupation is caused by the war against Israel."

I have always been troubled by the reports of Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory. Why did they? If the above is right, it's because they had no choice if they were to survive.

He also argues well about what he thinks would happen if Israel were just to allow Hamas to fire rockets and did nothing other than its best to protect its citizens, in order to inhabit the moral high ground. See last few paragraphs.

And he, like me, is appalled by the deaths in Gaza and wants it to stop but his final sentence is chilling in its accuracy. World opinion did not save the Jews before the Holocaust. Why should it now?
"by the time the army liberated the camps, most of the people were already dead. Never again."

Who will save the Palestinians? Or are they less valuabe because many are Muslim?? USA and UK are behind Israel. They have allies now.
What about those whose homes were in what is now Israel ? Who lost land by force in the creation of Israel. They did nothing.to cause the occupation of their land.

Of course a supporter of Israel will blame the Palestinians for the situation. They are never going to say oh we made a new country where loads of other people have lived for generations. We do not let them live as they have done, we have takenthekr land and property and now the ungrateful bastards are fighting us!!

Finkelstein refers to the Holocaust as though there is a threat to herd Jews into concentration and death camps again, therefore this explains why Israel is upholding its right to annihilate Gaza to ensure 'never again.' He's deluded.

The residents of Gaza voted in Hamas. Did they not realise what were the goals of Hamas with regard to Israel (i.e. its obliteration)? Do they not know about the non-acceptance of Israel? Do they not know why Israel encroached on Palestinian land when some of the people in those lands would not leave them to live in peace but kept on shelling?

If they do not know these things, then I am even sadder for them than I have been already.

Finkelstein is not saying that what is happening is not dreadful. He is not saying that he doesn't feel compassion for innocent Gazans. He's putting the dreadful happenings in context and the context is a government in Gaza that is completely opposed to the existence of the state of Israel.

They say people get the government they deserve. I don't believe Gazans have the government they deserve but the government they have is not Israel's fault.

Does Mr Finklestein take into account the fact that Israel has set out to increase its population by encouraging the immigration of millions of Jewish immigrants from all over the world. Also orthodox jews tend to have very large families I believe. So with a determined policy of population growth they were going to run out of land, weren't they.
I remember there was a time when there was a lot of propaganda in this country, encouraging young people (Christian as well as Jews) to come and work on Kibbutzim. (? pl) . Lots of idealistic marketing spin. All part of the immigration drive. Last week I was listening to an item about an American charity that pays for large numbers of young American Jews free holidays in Israel. Such is the confidence in the "shield" that they are still going on holidays from New York etc. So they are still encouraging well-educated Americans to move there (meanwhile supporting 3rd world, religion only, education for many orthodox boys)
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If I were Jewish, I would be in despair at some of the ill-informed and simplistic stuff that has been produced on GN recently. As a non-Jew, it just makes me very angry. Any argument which lumps together any identifiable group of people (men, black people, Muslims, Americans) and attributes the same characteristics, motives, beliefs or practices to all of them is a clear definition of prejudice. And anyone who has debated with me on GN will be aware that I have argued against the expression of such prejudice in other cases. Life is easier if you see it in terms of all bad, all good, no ambiguity or fuzziness. But it isn't reality. Hang in there, bags.

JessM - Muslim families tend to be very large, just like those of orthodox Jewish people, and of course many Catholic families.

The fact remains that what Israel is doing is reacting to constant attack from anti-Israel guerillas, or whatever they should be called.

It has been argued that setting up the state of Israel was a mistake. Perhaps it was, but it was understandable in the post-Holocaust circumstances and it is a state recognised by all the rest of the world except portions of the other Arab world. Hamas in Gaza is one of those portions. Hamas does not want to live in peace with Jewish Israelis; it wants to wipe Israel from the face of the earth, as its rocket-chucking behaviour proves.

When you consider the history of the current events what Israel is doing does not seem out of proportion.

Which is not to say that the Gazan results do not seem out of proportion, but Finkelstein explains very well why the alternative (not firing back) is unrealistic.

I live in an area with a large population of orthodox and non orthodox Jews and have Jewish friends , acquaintances and neighbours of my generation and my DD's generation. Some of both generations have intermarried others no longer attend synagogue and some have no desire for 'next year Israel'. Others have very strong beliefs which I respect and we do not discuss religion.

The friends of both DDs are some of the ones I have known since childhood and they have their own views now, no longer blindly following the beliefs of their parents or their faith, are not of the 'chosen ones' mindset. They still think of themselves as Jewish but do not want to be associated with the actions of Israel and are worried about repercussions on them and their young families.

The views I posted earlier in this discussion are what I have been told. Whether any poster decides to disbelieve or indeed thinks I am having a laugh is immaterial to me and they are of course entitled to their opinion.

It was Palestinian land. Why would they not fight to retain it? What are you not understanding? If someone decided to give your garden away to some deserving cause without any compensation and chose the most fertile bits too. You would not be happy. If the incomers then decided that they wanted more of your land because you overlooked their new house so took more would you sit and just smile??

I know too many people whose lives have been broken by this policy that I am not able to remain calm in the face of such unempathic thinking. I really will not post again . You know my views and I will always stand by the right of Palestinians to have a recognised homeland free from fear of encroachment & rule by Israel.

In the meantime, Joan stupid Rivers is NOT helping, is she? I've signed the petition asking for her tour of the UK to be cancelled.

youtu.be/tIibX4Drzxs

A lot of polarisation on here. How about a spot of lateral thinking.

BOTH Israelis and Palestinians have a right to live in the land THEY LEGALLY HAVE NOW without being shelled by the other. BOTH have a right to live without being hated by their neighbours. BOTH have lost family and friends in the conflict.

NEITHER seems to be open to negotiation and compromise. Remember compromise? That tiny step toward your own correct view which the other stubborn bastard refuses to take, so you have absolutely no intention of taking a great leap toward his. That stubborn bastard has the same definition Without compromise, they will BOTH destroy each other.

There is no going back on the creation of Israel as a Jewish homeland. Any solution has to accept the existence of Israel within its current boundaries. What BOTH sides should be doing is actively considering what can be done to reconcile the Palestinians to that and turn two sets of neighbours from hell into two nations which can live side by side (stopping well short of annihilating all Jews from the face of the earth, the prevailing Palestinian plan) instead of shelling the shit out of each other.

And what GN supporters of each sides could do is to try to think of creative answers, instead of continuing the exchange of heated debate.

A challenge - How could they compromise without losing their integrity?

Good post. I left this thread as I was getting shelled by both sided ! You have said it exactly as it is Elegran but might be easier getting both sides in this conflict to agree a compromise than to get GNetters to do the same thing.

What is needed is new, inspirational leaders to emerge on both sides.

With an agenda to bring peace to the region.

Well said Elegran.

That assumes that there was ever a genuine commitment on the part of the Israelis to allow Palestinians to remain in the areas allocated to them and an intention to treat them as equal human beings. Speeches made by former leaders and officials indicate that the underlying agenda was to rid the land entirely of the Palestinian presence by making their lives intolerable:

"The Arabs will never win over us by throwing stones. Our response must be a nationalist Zionist response. For every stone that’s thrown–we will build ten settlements. If 100 settlements will exist–and they will–between Nablus and Jerusalem, stones will not be thrown. If this will be the situation, then the Arabs will only be able to scurry around like drugged roaches in a bottle. " (Rafael Eitan, former Israeli Chief of Staff)
(Camera - Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America) have tried to discredit this quote as "A single (albeit controversial) remark made in a specific context is misrepresented as a generalized, routine slur by an Israeli leader".)

Although Israeli leaders are not so careless now with the language they use, the tactics they employ remain the same - completely ignore UN resolutions re ending the occupation of illegally held land and ending human rights abuses and then give a semblance of engagement in peace talks but refuse to budge on these fundamental issues, and then express horror when the Palestinians fire rockets at them. This gives them the excuse to use their military might to bomb the Palestinians.

The Emergency Regulations passed in 2003 limits the right of Arab citizens of Israel to have their spouse and children naturalized. The Central Bureau of Statistics divides the citizens of Israel into two categories "Jews and Others" (Jews, Christians who are not Arabs and people of no religion) and "The Arab Population" (Muslims, Druze, Christian Arabs). This is just one small part of the system, one of many, that has caused Desmond Tutu and many others to draw parallels with the apartheid regime of South Africa.

Unless the US stops giving billions of pounds worth of military and other aid to the Israelis, thus forcing them to participate meaningfully in peace negotiatons, I don't know what the answer is.

If Hamas stopped their ineffectual military action, perhaps Israel would then be forced to address the real issues - or perhaps things would continue as before, with the UN passing further useless resolutions and everyone forgetting about the ongoing plight of the Palestinians.

Then the peace talks must concentrate on the legalities, not on the underlying hostilities, and a lasting contract formed which guarantees the rights of Palestinians to THEIR homeland without settlements encroaching on it in return for respecting Israeli rights to be in THEIR homeland.

On the Israeli side, freedom from tunnels and rockets in return for respecting Palestinian rights to the land which they live on.

Then the peace terms need to be monitored.

Who can broker these talks? Who can monitor the ensuing peace? The US is partisan and not trusted by Palestinians, the surrounding Arab nations not trusted by the Israelis, the UN is toothless. Who is left? Tony Blair? He has been very quiet on the subject.

Tony Blair - never!

Good article by Jonathan Sacks. The earlier part is potent and chilling and we should take heed.

As might be expected, I don't agree with the points he makes about secularism in the second half of the article, though I think he's right about the need for our common humanity to be what is important rather than our religious differences. Secularism stresses that very point.

Gosh, he writes well, doesn't he. I can't pretend to understand all of it, but this struck a cord:
" But it is our difference that constitutes our humanity. Because none of us is the same as another, each of us is irreplaceable. A nation that has no room for difference has no room for humanity."

Jonathan Sacks has always seemed to me to be a good and wise man, and I can agree with much of what he says.
However no government can be above criticism and it alarms me that criticism of the Israeli government is so often taken as anti-semitism. So here is another article written by someone with a personal relationship to the Holocaust who has also been accused of being anti-semitic
www.independent.co.uk/voices/why-im-on-the-brink-of-burning-my-israeli-passport-9600165.html
and another interview with her.
www.pressgazette.co.uk/mira-bar-hillel-says-fellow-uk-based-jewish-journalists-wont-speak-out-against-israel-fear

It's precisely because of those words of Jonathan Sacks quoted above that I want to see Israel and the Palestinians (both Muslim and Christian) living together in peace - and that demands honesty and truth on all sides.

I think that Sacks and others are telling us that because of what is going on in Gaza there has been a noticeable and troubling rise in anti-semitism in various countries. He is not placing the Israeli government above criticism at all but he is worried, as I am, as we all should be, about the behaviour of some people who don't seem to be able to separate in their minds the Israeli government and Jews all over the world.

Thanks B