Sex cases in the news

When I look at photos of myself in the late 60s I gasp! - to think that I went round some of the worst slums in Birmingham as a SW with my bum practically on view just beggars belief! I was pretty naive.

Bluebelle, I agree with your post. I support when's post which says consensual relationships of the kind you describe wouldn't lead to prosecution, much less registration on the sex offender list.
My experience was that occasionally an irate parent would attempt to get a boy of 17 prosecuted for having sex with their 15 year old daughter. The young people would insist it was a consensual relationship. The police/sw would spend some time trying to reassure the parents of that (if it were true) and calm shredded nerves to support the families involved.
Non consensual sex with young people and children is a different matter.

Margaret X - am I wrong in feeling you are blaming girls for the behaviour of adult men? I was lucky with boys and young men of my own age, and I was careful about my safety, no doubt because my parent were sensible about the advice they gave, and their occasional 'no, you can't go there' when I was in my early and mid teens.
The thing I remember, is the inappropriate comments from men at various work places, casual sexual harassment which has already been said, often lays the ground for sexual abuse.

I think the essence of the story is that there were no procedures for bringing a case of harassment - because he was not an employee. Therefore there was an investigation as to whether he had "brought the party into disrepute".
Burden of proof in such an enquiry is high - like a court of law, (higher than you get in an HR employee disciplinary) - women's testimonies only not strong enough.
This is the story that will rock Westminster this week.
Here's the official line .
www.libdemvoice.org/internal-investigation-into-allegations-against-lord-rennard-37847.html

Just thinking. Most of you here who have spoken about inappropriate behaviour started your working life in an office, am I right? Where one would assume that these ' gentlemen ' were from we'll brought up respectable families.
I started work in 1961 in the printing industry. I did my 6 year Apprentiship as a hand sewer. The men I worked with we're all very working class and some from very rough areas, like me. I can tell you, not one of those men would dream of doing or saying anything inappropriate ( unless you count swearing) a lot of that. They knew that they would have the wroth of the older women down on them.
Just an observation.

A lot of working class men don't swear in front of women (in social situations, at least) either.

That's a very interesting point, petra. I did have problems at work when I left school, but more seriously starting from the age of 13 when a friend and I naively accepted an invitation to see a young male (15) friend's new flat, a home that he shared with his 32 year old uncle, (most definitely working class) who quickly appropriated me to show me around. When his hand shot up my skirt at first I froze - but then screamed whilst smacking him around the head with my bag and making a run for it. Friend was confused, as was young male, but I remember running for the door and praying it wasn't locked, then hurtling down the stairs. Did I tell anyone - not for years, until I was 18, when my younger sister brought the boy home as her boyfriend and I went into shock. It really traumatised me, because - he was An Uncle. I trusted him. In those days, you trusted your elders and were told to respect them. Your brain in that moment is telling you that you are wrong, you must be wrong.

In a weird way it stood me in good stead, because I was very suspicious after that, just as well as a taxi-driver tried to abduct me (aged 15) when his wife was pregnant, I almost got raped not once but twice, saved only by other people turning up, and was stalked by my boss when I was a newly-wed 20 year old. He even drove miles out of his way to drive me to work. He was 57. I left. My new boss asked why I was leaving, he was about 60. I told him that it was because my old boss was a dirty old man. he asked if I would have been as upset if my old boss had been 25. I replied yes, I was married and had thought that at long last I would be free from unwelcome advances at long last. He gave me the job and was wonderful.

I like the idea Petra but in my experience it has NOTHING to do with class when my children were small and I was left on my own I took a job as a chambermaid while they were at school this would be in the late 70s all the men chefs, kitchen hands, porters etc were a 'randy' jokey lot. One day a much older porter (probable in his 50's)married and well known to my family asked me if I would help him bring a mattress down from the attic, as soon as we got by the mattress he pushed me down onto it with a leer on his face, luckily I was able to roll off the other side and shoot out the door nothing was said and he carried on as if nothing had happened, I kept out of his way as much as possible until one day I was in a tiny cupboard like kitchen making myself a drink when he came up behind me grabbed me round the waist and shoved me against a wall trying to kiss me, luckily footsteps came along the corridor and he innocently moved away to get a cup I spoke to some of the workers who d been there a long time not with any details and they just laughed if off as 'oh they re a randy lot they re all the same ' I never told another soul

No woman should have to tip toe round life being afraid to be near some people for fear of their selfish reactions

Do you think that there are some women who give off the vibe ' Dont even think about it' I think I was one of them.
I think I've mentioned before that I come from a violent childhood. But my Father taught us, when we ' started to develop' to defend ourselves.
At 14 he told me to bring my knee up very sharp between a mans leg.
He told us to carry a pair of scissors in our bag, not a knife as that is classed as a weapon.
It also helped that nobody thought about ' messing' with me because they knew my Father would take their head off.

I am sticking my head above the parapet here, but I think you have a point Petra. There are some men who are so gross they will grab at anything any time, any where, but the majority are chancers and if they think that they may not get away with it or may not get a reaction they steer clear.

I worked most of my career in male dominated industries where I was often the only managerial grade women in a department. My mother was an unknowing feminist so my upbringing meant that it never occurred to me to be intimidated or overawed, or to kowtow to someone just because they were male so I had no qualms about speaking up at meetings and holding my own in discussions. I think that meant the chancers decided I was best avoided because I might embarrass them if they tried it on.

I did notice that some women, were either visibly uncomfortable when some men laid it on and others had a flirtatious manner with men that always reminded me of one dog crawling around a dog it accepted was top dog. I do not think this behaviour was deliberate. Women who reacted in this way tended to get more hassle than I did.

Lucky you petra to have a dad that made you understand that men were not to be trusted. And lucky you, that you never had an unfortunate experience with a boyfriend or colleague.
Bullies will maybe tend to go for easier looking victims but I think there is a lot of luck involved in who you bump into in life. I don't suppose the prospective lib-dem candidates were shrinking violets.
I worked in a big male-dominated company for 8 years. One or two made a tentative pass, that's all.

JessM It has always surprised me how some women who seem assertive and self confidence, can actually have, underneath, a vulnerability that men on the hunt instinctively home in on.

Well we all have our soft spots. And all kinds of women get attacked and harassed, not just the doe-eyed, vulnerable ones. Sometimes it is a kind of bullying. To say that it is something to do with the woman is dangerous ground because it is not, is it, it's to do with the man.

I was brought up by a feminist too, and thought I was very confident and assertive - it didn't stop me getting harrassed though. I think that was more to do with having long legs, slim body, big boobs, long blonde curly hair and large blue eyes. If they could see me now...

I had the legs and the body but not the boobs, hair and eyes. Mine were, small, very dark brown and hazel.

Just watched DLT as he walked from court cleared of all charges. I was struck by his dignity and gravitas. He's had to sell his house to pay legal fees and will have to rebuild his life and his reputation.

The conviction rate in rape/sexual assault or harassment cases is nationally very low indeed as such allegations are more difficult to prove. I think it's therefore not surprising that cases involving high profile people follow a similar trend.

?

Eloethan yes indeed. Makes you despair sometimes.

Only feel despair if the person is incorrectly found not guilty. The jury in this case was 8 women and four men with the ages of the jury spread. We have to believe in the Justice system to impartially listen to the evidence, weigh up the probability and only convict if the balance of evidence is there.
Were the jury influenced by the high profile of the accused, only the jury can know. It's a very hard call when it is one persons word against another with no other evidence. It seems the balance of probability was not there in 12 of the 14 charges and undecided in the other two.

I can think of a few other times when I feel despair apart from someone being incorrectly found not guilty, Brenda. Such as when some evidence is not presented, juries believe the claimants but still don't make a finding of guilt, and the jury later finds out that there are more charges yet to be made to the acquitted defendant.

There may very well be many instances where men are found not guilty of rape when they are, in fact, guilty.

Especially in the past.

But does this mean that we should assume that ALL men accused of rape are guilty?

And when an innocent man is accused?

Who's assuming ALL men are guilty of rape, Petallus? Just from reading widely about all the cases we know about and hearing what was actually discussed in open court, together with questions put to judges which delay decisions about each charge, it's there for all to see. Not just this one case. The justice system let's women down continually. Hence, there is another day of action today to publicise the need to strengthen the law and find ways to apply justice to cases where historical abuse is tried in criminal courts.

whenim64 I'm not clear whether you think DLT, WR, le Ve (sp) are guilty in spite of being found not guilty.

Quite when.

petallus - so, are all not guilty verdicts correct?