Appalling News

JessM UK people have been unfriendly and would sell up and move rather than live next door to an immigrant family? A broad generalisation surely? I don't know anyone with that implied mind set.

I understand Gillybob's point. There are areas of this country which are alien, where you can walk down the street and feel awkward and not especially welcome. Remember the woman a few months back who after living all her life in South London, moved out because she felt like an intruder. Presumably you would find fault with her attitude.

You mention the US - immigrants to that country had to learn the language and integrate and indeed, they actually were proud to become American citizens. We have welcomed immigrants here for a variety of reasons, as have other countries but if they want to share in the benefits of living in this country then they have to integrate with us, not the reverse.

Not guilt Bags but the Crusades may have helped to shape the world as it is today - and certainly sobering. War crimes aplenty by the likes of Richard Lionheart.
Gillybob what are you suggesting? Legislating over who can buy which houses or set up a business in which districts. Maybe it is because UK people have been unfriendly to the point of selling up and moving out, rather than live next to an immigrant family?
The United States is almost 100% immigrant stock and their problems are mainly routed in history - e.g. slavery - just as ours (such as they are - and I think in general we are doing pretty well) are rooted in colonialism. We would not be the rich country we are today if this colonial past had not happened.

What I can't understand is why we have allowed these "little" Somalia's , little Pakistan's etc. to flourish to such a point where an ordinary English man/woman would feel like they were trespassing in some foreign country. Why have we allowed signs sating that "Sharia law applies in this area" ?
Surely if someone comes to this country to live then they should integrate with society not try and recreate their own country in Britain.

Good article, Bags

Mohsin Hamid's novel, 'the Reluctant Fundamentalist', is a fictional account of a high-flying young Muslim's growing isolation (post 9/11) from the culture he whole-heartedly embraces as a recruit to a financial organisation in New York.

Nick Cohen in the Guardian on life-defying ideologies.

But wasn't there in-fighting for control of Jerusalem before the crusades? Isn't that what triggered them?

We need a (preferably several) knowledgeable historian's (historians') perspective(s).

What a diabolical sentence

Even if christians did invent the holy war (though the pope who started the crusades came after those horrid passages in the Koran were written), christianity has moved on a bit since then. Islam seems to have moved backwards.

Both religions are crusading/proselytising religions, actually very similar to each other in many ways including the nastiness in their 'holy' books.

Guilt trips about what happened hundreds of years ago are daft.

A sad week for Britain.
Agree "muslim community" is a load of tosh. In our city we have a Pakistani community, a Bangladeshi community, a Somali community (Muslims I think?), another mosque that caters for some middle eastern muslims. A group of muslims (including some women) who are raising money to start another Islamic community centre. Plus other groups probably who don't fit into the above. Where would an Indonesian fit in?
As diverse as Greek Orthodox, Quakers and African Catholics - who would probably not be referred to collectively as "the Christian community".
Didn't Christians invent the holy war when successive Popes pressured Europeans to travel to the middle east on Crusades to try to drive the "infidel" out of Palestine region? And later Ferdinand and Isabella drove the peaceful Moors out of Spain? You can still see the triumphalist paintings in Spanish churches with Jesus or Mary looking smug, with the crescent moon trodden into the dirt beneath their feet.

Yes, I had the same facebook request, but i did not sign it as a State funeral would be inappropriate. A good military funeral would be the correct thing, if his family want that. I'm sure the lad would be appalled at the thought of a state funeral.

Just had someone on Facebook calling for a state funeral for the murdered soldier. Now that really would be inflammatory.
Sel I can imagine that play would really make you sit up and think by taking you inside a multiethnic situation. And an interesting point that all major religions are past their sell by date outdated.

Just been to see a very pertinent play at the Bush Theatre, Disgraced. American author addressing the issue of integration and religion. Of those born in the West who have been schooled in a religion based on words written for a society 1500 years ago. Very interesting play with a Muslim lawyer, his white American liberal wife, his nephew who is trying to supress his Islamist upbringing, a more successful black woman colleague and a Jewish art curator who has bedded the lawyer's wife. Sort of ticked every box.

Strong stuff but I felt I learned something of the mind set of young Muslims. When one character said to another 'you're the Niggers now'it caused a very sharp intake of breath from the audience but it didn't half make you think.

I would guess that calling it terrorism will give the police and courts extra powers. Maybe longer prison sentences - I hope they get life, meaning till they leave prison dead.

There is so much in the Bible, especially the First Testament, that makes pretty grim reading.

This horrific crime was committed by two madmen, abusing the name of Allah, and I wouldn't call the actions of 2 isolated madmen to be terrorism.

I was looking up various aspects of Islam on Wiki and came across this interpretation of 'jihad':

Jihad is a religious duty of Muslims. In Arabic, the word jihād is a noun meaning "struggle." Jihad appears frequently in the Qur'an and always used in the nonmilitary sense. A person engaged in jihad is called a mujahid; the plural is mujahideen. When a violent act is intended, the Qur'an used the term "Qattal" meaning to engage in killing/violence.

There's so much we don't know about Islam and so much that nobody wants to tell us.

I meant to add that I was sickened by Nick Griffin's grabbing publicity by going to lay a wreath on the spot where the atrocity was committed.

bags I agree and the problem is unless you are fully read in the Koran and the Hadith, but presumably you would have to be some sort of Islamic scholar to know what they contain and how to interpret these writings, how can we as lay people know exactly what parts of the Islamic faith its adherents subscribe to? I often hear it described as a peaceful religion by some of its followers, but events both here in the west and in Arabic countries prove that there is a disconnect between the benevolence and tolerance that these people say is at the heart of their religion and the increasing violent acts that occur around the world. Obviously that peace was there once as history tells us, in Spain for example the Moors were generally more enlightened, educated and tolerant than the rather backward, intolerant and scary Christians were. I know there was a schism in their religion which has produced the different factions of Shias and Sunnis, similar to Christianity with Protestants and Catholics. Nevertheless if they are hell bent on so called "Jihad" holy war against us the infidel that doesn't seem to preclude them killing each other.

The young assailant covered in blood waving the meat cleaver quoted "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" which of course is from the Bible, but we now know he was raised as a Christian and as you point out bags the Bible has plenty of nasty bits too.

Of course different faiths should be allowed to follow their religion without fear of persecution and I think we all respect that, nevertheless it's followers still must adhere to the laws of this country and this "Jihad" word that I believe means waging a so called holy war on "infidels" us the non believers, is one of the aspects I find not only unpalatable but alarming about that faith particularly when acts of barbarism are accompanied with cries of "god is great!"

I thumped the TV quite hard when I switched off Newsnight on Thursday. Anjem Choudary was being given air time to express his obnoxious jihadist views. some politicians on both sides have condemned this editorial faux pas.

when, it's all very well to say jihad is meaningless to most muslims. I'm sure it is, but that isn't the point either. Jihad is encouraged in their holy book which they and we are supposed to honour and rever as the word of god. If it is the word of god, it's a very nasty god. If they think jihadism has no place in Islam then they need to cut it out of their holy book.

And yes, I would apply exactly the same idea to christians who still use nasty stufff from the bible to justify certain choices and behaviour.

You can't call a book holy and then cherry pick which bits you are going to use. Well... obviously you can because people do!

But I still think Fatah has put it well. He knows what he's talking about. People who say this is not Islam either have their heads in the sand as he suggests, or are simply ignorant (word used literally to mean "not knowing") of their own religion's roots.

Faith in a good god is a separate thing, I feel, from accepting a whole book, including nasty bits which really aren't acceptable, as holy writ. That, I think, is Fatah's point.

I suppose, in the end, any condemnation of barbarity is what counts. Let's hope more and more people do speak out and help Islam to move forward.

I believe, from the news this morning that allegedly M15 tried to get one of the two perpretators to join! Fortunately he was not interested. If true, that is horrendous as he would have had inside knowlwdge and be able to cause more havoc.

I do agree with all that has been said, a dreadful crime. I do think that this will bring most Muslims out to say they abhore such things too.

I do feel so terribly sorry for the families of these two men though. They brought them up as devout Christians and presumably did all they could to give them good values. Now they will be distraught and wondering what they did wrong although it was probably nothing to do with them. I have a friend whose son was always spiritual and at about the time he went to university he bacame a devout Muslim. He is now a lovely father of two and a doctor but who knows what would have happened to him if he had met the wrong people? All our children are vulnerable as they leave the family influence.

There will always be communities that "ghettoise" themselves, just like there will always be those who wholeheartedly throw themselves into blending with their host country. Muslims are not alone in this, Orthodox Jewish people who live around Golders Green for example tend to live in closed communities although their way of life doesn't affect the wider community. We have to recognise that it very important to some ethnic groups to uphold their religious and cultural differences, and as long as this doesn't affect the wider population in a negative way it shouldn't be a problem. There are of course aspects about the British way of life that would be quite abhorrent to more conservative ethnic groups and I can see why that would find issues like drunken people littering our streets less than appealing, I know I do.

However, having said all that, the onus on immigrant communities should be to adapt to our society, I know my own immigrant grandfather managed this perfectly well but it did help having an English spouse and my father and his siblings had no problem embracing two cultures, with the English side was always at the fore. Going back in time when social networks didn't exist and travel was more difficult it was harder to keep in touch with the country of origin and I can't help thinking assimilation was quicker because the break with the mother country was more final. 19th and 20th century immigrants to America are probably a good example of this as often by the second generation they were completely homogenized Americans. Marrying out of their ethnicity is not an option for some and that in itself will possibly keep them separate. Speaking the host country's language should be paramount as well as understanding their customs. Deeply entrenched religious beliefs that slur Westerners as "infidels" and "kaffirs" do not help with cohesion and although there is understandable anger about Western foreign policy many of us disagreed with our own government's decision to enter into an illegal war with Iraq for example. There is also an element within the Muslim community whose main objective is to impose a draconian version of their religion on the rest of mankind. Peter Tatchell on Question Time highlighted the problem that on some university campuses there is an increasing problem with a few "hardline" Muslims in trying to promote a separation the sexes and he said that they often expressed misogynistic, homophobic and anti semitic sentiments. Sweeping these things under the carpet will not make them go away otherwise we risk swelling support to the other crazed sections of our society such as the EDL.

PS * GillyB* I think they made a start as last night I saw the Bishop of Canterbury, the Leaders of the Muslim Council and others gathered in the street for a news conference saying 'we stand united against this'

I walked past Enoch Powell's grave yesterday and I suddenly remembered his 'Rivers of Blood' speech. Lets hope it never comes to that. Extremism, of any flavour, is not to be tolerated.

I think it is about time that religious leaders from all religions came out and "put their money where their mouth is" so to speak. This is Britain and we should all respect our country and its citizens not fight against it, surely that is civil war? If you do not want to live here and have no love or respect for the country it's simple, leave. It is time governments stood up and declared that this is a Christian country (I am not religious) and whilst anyone is free to pray to whichever god they choose they are not free to preach hatred in the streets. Also there is one law and it is the law that each and every one of us have to live by. Why have we allowed this to happen?