The reality behind the deficit cutting.

Ana,

There are far too many people in this country who have never had to live on welfare.

Yet these people are the first to make judgments about people living on welfare.

That's why I asked the question.

Do you really mean the first sentence in your last post Ivanhoe? Surely no one wants more people to have to live on welfare payments. Do you, in fact, mean that there are far too many people who have never had to live on welfare making judgements about those who do have to?

ivanhoe I'd say that it's a good thing that there are many people who've never had to live on welfare!

absent.

""There are far too many people in this country who have never had to live on welfare"".

I see you use my sentence "against" what I'm saying.

Riverwalk. I disagree.

If more people had to experience life on welfare, then there would be more realisation of what life was truly like at the bottom of the economic ladder.

It is bad enough the economic side, but to be made to feel like a leper by other people and by the Government is descrimination.

Most of us have got long memories Ivanhoe.

j08,

""Most of us have got long memories Ivanhoe"". Meaning what precisely?

Meaning I can remember the forties. When we were really poor.

That's all.

j08 Thu 07-Feb-13 15:02:20
""Meaning I can remember the forties. When we were really poor"""

Wait for it, it will be third world countries poverty next.

What a stupid remark.

You needed an apostrophe after countries. ie third world countries' poverty.

Or, you could have said, "third world country poverty".

That was quite apart from the stupidity of the post.

This is not a debate. The suggestion that more people should be at the bottom of the "economic ladder" so that they know what it's like beggars belief. I can't be bothered with it any more.

Ivanhoe, following my previous post regarding the Chinese Finance Minister's remarks about welfare he was talking about Europe as a whole and not just Britain. I was quoting his thoughts and not my own. I don't know what welfare payments are in the rest of Europe. No doubt in particular he was referring to Greece. China has risen very quickly, but I imagine they still have great pockets of poverty.

Whilst I don't dispute there are pockets of poverty in our country, although I doubt whether it's on a part with some countries' definition of that state. You asked previously about my personal experience of welfare and this I can tell you. My son became a father at 23, with his partner who was just 19 years old when our granddaughter was born. This was a foolish decision on both their parts as they barely knew each other. However, we have done our best to support them and we have a lovely granddaughter who is now three. My son works extremely long hours and when he lived with the mother of our granddaughter one of the many problems they encountered in their relationship was the fact that his partner expected our son to give her an allowance to spend on the following, regular Starbucks coffee, weekly nail bar sessions, a night out at least once a fortnight clubbing, an expensive Blackberry contract etc. Many of her friends who are young mothers who are on benefits and they expect to have these things. Do you think for example it's a necessity for a young mother to have her nails done professionally at a cost of £30 a week?

My son has now split with his ex girlfriend for a multitude of reasons and he pay's the very maximum percentage of his salary as outlined by the government towards the up keep of his daughter. We also chip in with clothes, shoes etc. This young mother has her rent paid on a two bedroomed flat, some £1,100 per month we live in an expensive area. She gets the maintenance from my son, her council tax is paid, then she receives a raft of other benefits relating to maintaining herself and our granddaughter, I'm not sure what they amount to. She has a gym membership at a private health club, a very expensive phone contract, her nails done regularly and a raft of other what I would personally call non essentials. This young woman has barely worked in her life, neither have quite a few of her friends living in similar circumstances. Whilst I accept there are often a multitude of reasons why young women become mothers and become dependent on the state, what I do know is that not all of them are living lives of complete deprivation.

Ironically, my son met up recently with another old girlfriend from school who worked hard went on to university, qualified as a teacher and would like to move out of her parents house but can't afford to do so. The same goes for our younger son who graduated in last July and works, but does not earn enough to live independently either. Strangely when I grew up young mothers were not housed courtesy of the state. We all knew that, amazingly it had the effect of focusing your mind in not getting pregnant. Could there possibly be a connection in the number of girls who become young mothers these days and the the raft of benefits available to them?????

I am really concerned about how this debate has become really personalised.

While I agree that in some circumstances, young women may deliberately get pregnant, and may be housed, but this is not why there are single mothers, and in our area it is not a given that they get housed.

When I left my husband many years ago, due to Domestic Abuse, I was shocked how hard it was to survive - and I worked as a childminder, and received some income support - it really opened my eyes, and my circle of friends changed, as did my whole outlook on life - I felt vilified in the press, and single mums were painted as being feckless.............outsiders may have looked at me, and thought, how can she get her hiar done, send her children to Judo ( or go to the gym? ) - answer - swapping childcare for hair do's and supportive parents who paid for my children to have activities.

Unless you have lived through the humiliation of having to pay on a pre paid meter for utilities, trekking through the snow just to keep your electric on, witha sick child in a buggy, or been down to 2 spuds and a tin of unwanted salmon in your cupboard, you may not fully understand what life on benefits is like.

The unemployed and benefit claimants are being accused of scrounging, and lumped in a category of 'cheats' when many are people who have been made unemployed by the public sector cuts and the recession, and there but for the grace of god, many of us good join them

What happened to empathy and compassion for goodness sake !

susieb755 , I could not agree ""more"" with everything you say.

I am 64 years old and i'll tell you now that there is this thing about many British people, that they have to have someone to look down on, and also someone to look up to.

And the right wing Government's the British have elected constantly since the 80's starting with Margaret Thatcher, have successfully demonized those at the bottom of the social and economic ladder, , and the right wing have purposely done this to get votes, and its worked.

For goodness sake.

You are talking to some who have experienced hardship. When I was pregnant I had to sell gold rings to buy a coat. Mortgages were 15%. We wore jumpers and coats in the house to keep warm, central heating, not. A meal out was a special occassion. We did two jobs to keep life ticking over. I sold wedding gifts and went to jumble sales washed and ironed stacks of clothing to sell on Leicester market. The state didn't give you bugger all then, unless you knew how to work the system, and it was Labour in power.

To demonise anything that is not, what, communism? is impossible to debate with. There is no acceptance other than doom, gloom and going to hell in a hand cart. It is impossile to present factual information nor experiences, they simply will not be accepted.

POGS,

It so happens that Britain has not been governened by a traditional labour Government since the 70's. What we had under New Labour was a continuation of Margaret Thatcher's free market policies.

If you couldnt get anything off the State it was because you were both working, so the means test applied.

susieb755, is bang on in what she says, single mothers/parents, have indeed been demonized, they are seen as woman who have babies just so they can live off the State. And homeless people are sometimes spat on by people walking past.

What's happened in Britain particularly since Thatcher has been to divide the people, set us all arguing and fighting amongst ourselves and its worked because the British are easily divided.

I followed this thread with great interest. It was a lively debate with both sides putting their views forward clearly. As it's about politics, of course it became heated. However, I'm so disappointed that it's ended up with a little gang (not clique) of bullies throwing their toys out of the pram and flouncing out of the door, banging it behind them simply because someone disagrees with what they're saying, and sticks to their own point of view. Isn't this what debating is supposed to be about? I'm not sticking up for Ivanhoe, I'm sure he can look after himself. It's so disappointing that so many threads seem to end up this way on GN.
I don't often stick my head over the parapet - only unless I have something I feel is important (to me) to say. I shall leave by the front door.....

Which bullies Goose and how are they bullying?

This thread is very similar to another (put on by the same member) 'Britain's Basic State Pension'*....). both of which I have been following and both political.
In both threads, but probably more on the other one* there seems to me to be a lot of personal attacks towards the questioner.
I would like to have put my above comment on both sites but am not sure how to do it, it is relevant to both.

I really should just let this go but I just wanted to say to Susieb in particular, I wasn't trying to infer that I think all single mother living on benefits are feckless or shirkers. It goes without saying that they would encompass a very broad spectrum of women, widows, women who have been left circumstances like your own in a violent relationship and if that had been me I would have taken the same course of action that you did.

You are right that this thread has become personal. Possibly I sound judgemental but if I do it's because I am really just trying to cope with a situation that I have had thrown at me over the past few years. There was absolutely no reason why the mother of our granddaughter had to get pregnant, when she and my son moved in together she had an implant in. However, she took it upon herself aged 19 to have it removed as she had a coterie of friends who were already mothers, or about to be, and she thought it seemed like a good idea. I've never got to the bottom of whether my son was complicit in this, he is still is very sheepish about the whys and wherefores of the conception because he knows we were devastated when he announced a baby was on the way at that time. With good reasons because not only was their relationship volatile they had only been involved for about six months. He still thinks he has let us down, he was a very difficult teenager. Nevertheless, we have come through that troublesome period and we have a good/ish relationship with him now and he knows we love our grandchild very much.

Our granddaughter's mother is a very immature and petulant person, she can be ok, but she's hell when she's thwarted. Our son pays £250 per month to her for the upkeep of their child, he constantly has to monitor that money is not being misappropriated. He told me a while back that X's friends who are on benefits will often use the money when it is paid into their bank accounts for a night out and then not have enough to pay for their child's essentials. When my son and x were still together and our granddaughter was about six months, I told them I would buy a high chair for gd when they needed it, X texted me to say that one of her friend's wanted to sell a high chair that her own child had grown out of, I asked her if she thought it was in good condition and she said yes and her friend wanted £70 for it, I said that was OK I would go over to said friend and pay for it and pick it up within the next couple of weeks, it wasn't required right away. All OK or so I thought, next thing I know X is texting me friend wants money NOW is going out on Saturday, if I didn't get over and pick the chair up hand over the money within the next 24 hours, the offer of the high chair would be withdrawn. I refused to comply with request, I then got a volley of texts saying something like "I've let her down, don't know where she stands now as far as the high chair is concerned" blah blah, you get the picture. The point I'm trying to make here is that there are a fair amount of girls who get pregnant very young are not really ready for it, who haven't done their growing up and don't understand what the benefits are for, i.e. the maintenance of their child. The particular girl who needed the £70 for the high chair was forever asking for X to a) look after her child the next day after a hangover from the night before and b) could she borrow money for food and milk for the child. This particular girl didn't seem to have any other sort of support network to back her up which is pretty crucial. X knows she has my son and two sets of grandparents she can rely on.

Having said all this, I would reiterate again that I know NOT ALL young mothers on benefits behave like this. There is nevertheless an enormous chasm between what someone of my age (late 50s) expected when I was aged between 19 and 25 and what a lot of young people expect now. I was working as a secretary in London and living in a rented flat from about aged 21 and didn't have masses of spare cash my ex was an articled clerk and earned less than me so we had to make do with things that were free we used to go to The Tate Gallery, museums, days out in Richmond Park, Hyde Park etc. etc. Our entertainment were nights in with friends with a few bottles of cheap plonk We all took it in turns to cook. We had nights out at the cinema, concerts and occasional meals, but none of it cost a lot. Trouble is if you tell some of a certain age this is how you spent your time they think your nuts and that you lived in some parallel universe. A good time to X and her mates is a night out in a club, double shots of God knows what all night long otherwise life isn't worth living. It's a question of expectations now, they are very different for some of the younger generation they do believe the right phone, nights out that cost anything between £50 abd £100 are an absolute God given right and at the risk of coming over all Daily Mail they see nothing strange in the fact that they aren't actually earning anything to support this lifestyle.

BAnanas the voice of reason

I am bemused by the simplistic economics Ivanhoe From reading the other thread about Pensions I gather you do not answer any direct questions. It's a given, surely that we all would like everyone to have enough money to live comfortably - that has to be paid for obviously. Just a simple question: how does the Government of whatever policitcal persuasion generate revenue?

I notice one of your favourite phrases is 'market lead economy'. What would be your alternative?

Sel, A mixed economy.

There is no money left but they think nothing of borrowing when they want to spend, therefore they decide what there is money for. Priorities. and the priorities are Tory so whadda yer expect?!! Personally, I would make a start by cutting expenses for all politicians, local and national, on the basis of "payment by results and targets" which they seem so fond of in the public sector.
Cut all the fighting abroad, we are not the world's police anymore.
Cut the quangos and government consultants. If MP's can't research and make a decision they should be elsewhere. Cut what we pay to Brussels, what is it for?
How's that for starters?!

That is what we have now. I'm still not clear how you are going to fund your Utopian dream. We have to compete in a much bigger market - against countries who do not provide the benefits we do, to earn the money to pay the benefits you wish to increase.