'The thug in police uniform'. (Daily Mail today)

Very interesting Greatnan that you admit to being a "loony leftie","dogooder" & a Guardian reader..I worked that one out by your postings, even my dog could have worked that one out...I wonder if you were also the alpha female in the ape group before being reincarnated!..Sorry not PC to mention apes!..The really sad thing is a "newbie" would be put off joining by this blatent example of the equivelent of male testosterone!

Uncalled for pammygran - that is definitely a personal attack. How are we supposed to have a mature debate if you resort to this kind of thing?

soop I don't think you should change I far prefer nice people to anyone else.

I suppose if you are a hard person, one with no feelings or someone who has never been hurt then perhaps you would be unaware that your comments could be deemed to be hurtful, patronising and in some cases sycophantic. Perhaps those who are so sure they are never like this are completely unaware of how others see them.

I do wish that if someone wants to insult me they would have the courage to come out and say it. I prefer pammygran's blatant rudeness and breach of forum etiquette to snide remarks which are obviously aimed at me. (Now I will get 'If the cap fits....')
I could not have been so successful in my teaching career had I not been a 'nice' person and plenty of members here know that I have frequently shown empathy when they talked about their problems. And as for not having problems of my own.............. However, if somebody says something that is clearly meant to be controversial I really don't see how I am supposed to respond 'gently'. Different contexts require different treatment.
I am not sure what is meant by being gentler in debate - are we supposed to avoid difficult concepts, or use simpler language? Now that I would consider patronising and condescending. I would never correct any other member's spelling or grammar and I presume that if they join in a debate they are sufficiently mature and confident to be treated as adults
Some of our members sometimes use words with which I am not familiar, or bits of Latin that I have forgotten. I don't complain that they being patronising - I just look it up on google. That way, I learn something new.
If I wanted to join a debate about astrophysics, I wouldn't expect other contributors to talk down to me by simplifying their language. I might just listen and not try to contribute if I was not confident that I had understood.
I am not going to descend to personal insult and invective and I will continue to post my honest opinions in spite of knowing that a small group will react with hostility to anything I say.

pammygran this personal attack is totally unfair and uncalled for, surely.
As said, this is a public Forum and we all have to learn to disagree without descending to 'attacks' of this kind. How sad.

On another Forum I was castigated for saying that it was not appropriate for several policemen to kick to the ground a young man after the police asked him to stop and get off his bike, which he did, without any threats. He was repeatedly kicked by several policemen when in the ground, and this was filmed by someone and put on u-tube.

I have great respect for the police, especially in the UK where they are normally unarmed and trained in diffusing, rather than enflaming, potentially difficult situations. To actually side with the policeman in this tragic case is very harmful to the police- who are generally excellent. Bad apples should be clearly condemned to protect the great majority of good ones.

But how can you tell if someone is being deliberately controversial? Just because their point of view is the opposite of yours doesn't mean that it's not an honestly held opinion.

I did raise that point myself earlier on this thread, nannym, and I'll repeat it here:
She may have been driven by motives we know nothing about - maybe she wasn't considering our reaction.

Because an opinion is honestly held does not prove that it is right - I took the view that it was totally wrong and said so. What should I have said?

I think it is reaching the stage when enough people are 'ganging up' on me for me to squeal that I am being bullied!

Greatnan "I do wish that if someone wants to insult me they would have the courage to come out and say it. I prefer pammygran's blatant rudeness and breach of forum etiquette to snide remarks which are obviously aimed at me. (Now I will get 'If the cap fits....')" Do you have the courage "to come out and say it" and name the person to whom you refer? It does sound to me as if you are doing exactly what you are critiscising someone else for.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that we "avoid difficult concepts" but I do sometimes feel that people could be kinder/gentler/more empathetic to other people's opinions. Neither do I think anyone has suggested we 'use simpler language' or have I missed something? I do think that paragraph in your message actually does sound patronising/condescending and implies that you think you are superior to some others. This is of course my opinion, although I am aware that others will share it and perhaps PM me because they don't want to put their head above the parapet.

"I am not going to descend to personal insult and invective and I will continue to post my honest opinions" I am so glad to hear this, I hope that applies to us all.

"in spite of knowing that a small group will react with hostility to anything I say" do you really believe there is a group of people out to get you whether small or large? I very much doubt if you can prove that there is anyone who has reacted "with hostility to anything" you say. Don't you think that is rather over the top?

Perhaps you shouldn't take everything so personally as you appear to not want anyone else to do?

There are plenty of places in GN that are "nice" and uncontroversial and long may it continue.
I have in the past likened this forum to a big women's centre with different things going on in different rooms. Support groups, chats over coffee, heated debates and other activities.
I think it is fine if the debates are full of disagreements but just as in real life not fine if people resort to rudeness or snide digs. No one has to join debates, but please, if you do, let us disagree with their views not attack individuals. If there is no disagreement, there is no debate.

O.K. Alison, I was referring to your remarks.

If that accusation of bullying is being levelled at me then I strongly object! I asked you to explain how you could tell when someone was being deliberately controversial as I would find it impossible.

Ganging up? I was merely reiterating nannym's point.

pammygran's post above was so stupidly offensive that it took my breath away. I refer particularly to the 'ape' comments.

How horrible to be on the receiving end of comments like that but even worse to be the kind of person who thinks it's okay to make them!

I've never felt this outraged on Gransnet before and I hope HQ will take action.

Then Greatnan I can only assume you feel that my remarks were appropriate to you. They were general remarks based upon my observations since I joined GN a few months ago. They were not directed at anyone in particular.

Your comment about people "ganging up" reminds me of a comment a while back about people having private conversations about others or something like that. At the time I commented that I didn't think that sort of thing would occur to most people and I hope that no one would gang up as that implies some sort of collusion outside of GN. Gangs like that would be very childish and would have a leader with sycophantic followers. I hope we are all above such behaviour!

Oh dear! I'm going to the poetry thread for some peace and quiet. Wouldn't say no to a wee dram at Lil's but the chaps are still proping up the bar...and anyway, have to wait 'til 6 o'clock...it's what we do in Kintyre.

*AlisonMA perhaps you should think again about whether or not Gransnetters are above childish behaviour.

We've just had one poster calling another poster whom she disagrees with an ape (amongst other things).

Please don't be outraged on my behalf, petallus - it just made me laugh!

But an ape nonetheless, as were homo erectus and our other pedessessors.
I'm not ashamed to be an ape! Albeit an advanced one!

I don't think it was meant to be complimentary, but I am beginning to see the funny side of the whole thing (apart from the horrible miscarriage of justice and slurs on the family).

Oh, for goodness sake! Pammygran didn't call Greatnan an ape! I do wish people would read posts properly before getting so indignant.

No jeni that just isn't good enough. It was a truly offensive remark.

Greatnan you might be able to rise above it but I object on general principles and I would be interested to see what HQ think about pammygran's remark.

I quite like the idea of having more than my share of testosterone - must be why I am so good at map-reading.

How sad to see the way this interesting discussion has descended to personal attacks. Robust, healthy debate is not harmful, but sniping and targetting indviduals in this way is abusive. I'm off to other threads.

Me too!