Should we all have the right to a same sex carer?

Excellent posts on the previous page, Dickens and Lathyrus.

Re the ‘sexual’ element- that is in the mind of those who see these things as sexual. It’s the same attitude as suggesting that women distressed by smear tests are prudish. Just because sex involves genitalia doesn’t mean that everything involving genitalia is sexual.

In the case of intimate care, objections to opposite sex carers is about consent, dignity and cultural norms. Nothing to do with life-saving measures or surgeons 😵‍💫. Or sexual activity.

Clearly not everyone is concerned, which is, of course, perfectly understandable. It’s very easy for me to understand that not everyone has the same views. Why doesn’t that work both ways?

Rosie wrote:
" Every individual's feelings are as valid, there are no top trumps to dignity."

I agree, and carers and nurses should know this and practice it.

However it eases procedures for patients and their carers when the patient feels able to comply with what the hospital normally provides. When you feel ill you may not have the energy to object. I feel this is the case generally; very often it does no harm to go with the flow.

Luminance

Entirely dishonest to make it appear as though I would advocate for "unsupervised or untrained" persons to be touching minors or elderly vulnerable people. Do not do that. Engage with the discussion at hand not a fantasy you have concocted to establish an argument. Outrageous behaviour.

Apologies. I was ruminating. I did two separate paragraphs but I should have made it clear they were not necessarily linked (thought I can see they look like it.) but rather the passage of my thoughts from a practical question to a philosophical one.

If you would like to respond to my first paragraph which was a genuine question about what you had posted about enabling people to feel safe and secure during intimate care, then I would be grateful.

Luminance

We must be clear that there isn't always a choice for care. It's rather important in fact. We must focus on enabling people to feel safe and supported so that they are never in a position where they are turning down care at risk to their health and safety. In an ideal world everyone can have their chosen care, that is something to work on and work towards but it cannot be a standard if that care is not available that they then are not offered it. Especially under life saving measures. So yes many of us need to engage our common sense. Prioritise those with real and genuine need rather than make it a battle that has losses on one side only.

We must be clear that there isn't always a choice for care. It's rather important in fact.

I doubt anyone on this thread is unaware of the paucity of carers, this fact is not a new phenomenon. It has been known for some considerable time by governments and their agencies that over the last 50 years or so, mortality rates have decreased and that fertility rates have declined.

We know - we know - that Care-in-the-Community is frequently inadequate, and we know the combination of reasons why, not least of which is the underfunding of social care systems.

It is not a lack of common sense that is the problem, it is the lack of leverage - clout - among the elderly / vulnerable who are largely forgotten or whose plight is ignored until the media highlights how they are, for example, 'bed-blocking' hospitals across the UK, followed by op-ed pieces insisting that something-must-be-done about said community-care, etc, etc, - and then they are forgotten again.

Rosie51

... this is so far from a carers role involving intimate personal care as to be a whale size red herring!!!!

My thoughts exactly!

Luminance

We must be clear that there isn't always a choice for care. It's rather important in fact. We must focus on enabling people to feel safe and supported so that they are never in a position where they are turning down care at risk to their health and safety. In an ideal world everyone can have their chosen care, that is something to work on and work towards but it cannot be a standard if that care is not available that they then are not offered it. Especially under life saving measures. So yes many of us need to engage our common sense. Prioritise those with real and genuine need rather than make it a battle that has losses on one side only.

Especially under life saving measures. this is so far from a carers role involving intimate personal care as to be a whale size red herring!!!!

Entirely dishonest to make it appear as though I would advocate for "unsupervised or untrained" persons to be touching minors or elderly vulnerable people. Do not do that. Engage with the discussion at hand not a fantasy you have concocted to establish an argument. Outrageous behaviour.

I’d be interested to know might measures could be taken to make people “feel safe and supported” so that being touched intimately by a member of the opposite sex did not embarrass or distress them.

How would you change their feelings about that? Indeed, should we change that? Would we feel easy if it was a five year girl being touched intimately by unsupervised non-medically trained staff? F not, why is it different for a ninety year old woman?

We must be clear that there isn't always a choice for care. It's rather important in fact. We must focus on enabling people to feel safe and supported so that they are never in a position where they are turning down care at risk to their health and safety. In an ideal world everyone can have their chosen care, that is something to work on and work towards but it cannot be a standard if that care is not available that they then are not offered it. Especially under life saving measures. So yes many of us need to engage our common sense. Prioritise those with real and genuine need rather than make it a battle that has losses on one side only.

Caleo

Rosie wrote: "why should someone who does feel loss of dignity if a male carer is cleaning their vulva and anus, have to be grateful for that?"
Only very helpless people have to have their bits washed by a carer. The usual procedure is for the carer to hand the wash cloth to the carer and invite the patient "would you like to finish washing yourself?"

Only very helpless people have to have their bits washed by a carer.

And those are the very people who through their extreme vulnerability need the absolute right to a female carer if that is their wish.

Of course those that have no issue with having a male carer should be free to feel that, but some posters (sorry I'm not scrolling through to name all the individuals) seem to suggest that because it's not a problem to them it shouldn't be a problem to anyone else. That's not acceptable. Every individual's feelings are as valid, there are no top trumps to dignity.

I wasn't aware we'd had a misunderstanding.

Good. An understanding.

Your care is your own business.
I've no wish to decide anything for you.

MissAdventure

That won't be happening in my case.
You may see it as fuss, I see it as as an intrinsic part if me keeping well, mentally.

If I feel no need to deny your chosen care why do you think you may decide for mine?

That won't be happening in my case.
You may see it as fuss, I see it as as an intrinsic part if me keeping well, mentally.

Engage some common sense, without those who don't mind there is less chance for those who do mind to have the desired care. So making it some sort of cultural norm would rather hinder our own health and care. Simply allow for needs to be met and otherwise carry on without the fuss.

Dickens and Lathyrus, I think you make the same point in your own ways. I believe psychologists recognise the point you are both making, that when we enter hospital we have less autonomy. In the old days when nurses wore real uniforms with caps and hospital decor was more austere it was expected and was easier, and to comply with whatever was required by the doctors and nurses.

The recent attitude is for patients to have more power of choice and for patients to be consulted. Patients have the power and the right to not accept anything if they choose not to, from treatments to medications to toileting. However there is usually no alternative on offer, whether an operation, a medicine, or delivery of personal care. As a patient I find it's easier for me to comply especially as far as carers and nurses are concerned.

MissAdventure

I've supported very many people over the years, but a lady sticks in my mind because of how excruciatingly embarrassed she was without her dentures in.

Not because I might see her, not because of what I thought, but because of how she felt.

You could see she was really upset - not being silly, or making a fuss, genuinely devastated.

When you're feeling vulnerable for any reason, whatever your age, something like that could make you feel distressed.

I do understand.

I've supported very many people over the years, but a lady sticks in my mind because of how excruciatingly embarrassed she was without her dentures in.

Not because I might see her, not because of what I thought, but because of how she felt.

You could see she was really upset - not being silly, or making a fuss, genuinely devastated.

What exactly would my not caring have to do with rights? Not one single thing I should think. Our rights may be retained or installed without resorting to theatrics or promoting fears of any kind clearly. When it comes to care I would rather not go without it, I will not be living with any pain or discomfort due to availablity of a care provider of any chosen description. I am not rather daft.

Lathyrus 👏👏

Dickens a very good post.

It’s very odd I think that if we were talking about women in an ordinary state of health leading ordinary lives, none of us would think it was ok for a male to touch their intimate parts if the woman had said no.

And yet if the woman is old and ill then somehow, for some, it becomes something not just to be expected, but for the woman to be mocked or disapproved of if she still says no.

Caleo

Miss Adventure:"I think the word prudish is not ideal when talking about it.
Is a preference not to eat meat "squeamish", and something to be got over?"

I was aware when I wrote"prudish" that it sounds judgemental.
I confess I am a little judgemental . Ideally we would all be happier if we all stopped worrying what others think of our nakedness.

Ideally we would all be happier if we all stopped worrying what others think of our nakedness.

I think there's something you're not understanding.

If I was to stride around naked - say on a beach - deliberately, and full of confidence- I might not worry what others thought of my naked state. The power lies with me.

Lying in a bed, vulnerable through disease or illness, dependent on others for intimate care - my choice whether or not to appear naked, has been taken away. The power lies with others.

It's to do with vulnerability. I think most people like to be in charge of when, where and with whom they appear naked.

"hand the washcloth to the patient"

Rosie wrote: "why should someone who does feel loss of dignity if a male carer is cleaning their vulva and anus, have to be grateful for that?"
Only very helpless people have to have their bits washed by a carer. The usual procedure is for the carer to hand the wash cloth to the carer and invite the patient "would you like to finish washing yourself?"