Fat (topic du jour)

Several posts on this thread mention starvation and its negative health connotations. Nobody needs to starve themselves to lose weight. 5:2 fasting doesn't involve starvation. You simply consume a quarter of your (carefully calculated) daily calorie needs on two days of the week. The rest of the week you eat sensibly. For example, at my current weight and activity level, my TDEE (total daily energy expenditure - you can find a calculator on line to work yours out) is around 1850 kcals. So on my fasting days I restrict myself to 460 kcals. I'm fasting today (and I won't deny I'm hungry but I keep busy so I don't notice it too much) so I will have two boiled eggs and a slice of toast (low fat spread) for my dinner, a dash of milk in coffee and tea throughout the day, and a quarter cup of porridge oats made with water with a dozen blueberries before bed. I don't eat at all until dinnertime because eating makes me hungry for more. Tomorrow I will enjoy eating normally. Nothing, (except added sugar e.g. cakes, sweets, chocolate, biscuits etc.) is denied. I eat wholemeal bread, real butter, meat, fish, potatoes, pasta, cheese, yogurt, vegetables and fruit. I also enjoy a glass of red wine, other than on fasting days. I suppose that's a Mediterranean diet, more or less.

Yup. I love fruit and veg, but my GP warned me off fruit about 10 years ago. A shame, because I was just as happy with an apple as chocolate and assumed I was making healthy choices.

I am currently on a low-carb eating regime (not a diet) as I have to take a high number of steroids (likely to be for several years, so no end in sight for me). Almost everything I eat (with the exception of protein) immediately turns to glucose and is converted to fat. Despite 'being good' and following the rules my weight is creeping up and I now have a 'moon face'.

It is quite dispiriting to see people thinking 'she's had a few Mars bars'! Not the case.

Metabolic rates differ wildly and what eating plan works for one may not for another.

Depending on one's metabolic rate, some people will lose weight almost effortlessly whilst others will struggle. If you are the former, lucky you but please don't assume that others are not trying.

Incidentally, someone mentioned being healthy and eating fruit. A few berries apart, fruit is a big no no for people like me and anyone who doesn't want to eat sugar - it will quickly turn to glucose and fat. I previously had no idea that fresh fruit could be 'bad'!

Most of us believe that its okay to consume sugar from fruits but sugar, in any form digests easily and is secreted into the blood stream. When the blood sugar level increases, the pancreas secretes insulin to control it. This insulin, in turn converts the sugar into fat and stores it below our skin. This increases fat and simultaneously your weight - if you don't burn off the sugar! There is no easy answer.

Now, where's that bag of crisps ...?

GillianP888

Hi, I think scientists now believe starvation does have long-term effects, even for future generations, but the detail is still being investigated. I've attached a link to a NY Times article re Dutch people that experienced starvation during WW2 (hoping you can read it as it's normally behind a paywall).

I also recall reading about Audrey Hepburn who said she was never able to put on weight, as an adult, as she had experienced malnutrition during WW2 in the Netherlands, as a child. It also caused her to have various diseases for her entire life. I think her experienced spurred her on to work with unicef, supporting international charity work to eliminate hunger.

www.nytimes.com/2018/01/31/science/dutch-famine-genes.html

Sorry GillianP888. I quoted the wrong comment. That was meant to be to Callistemon21.

GillianP888

Hi, I think scientists now believe starvation does have long-term effects, even for future generations, but the detail is still being investigated. I've attached a link to a NY Times article re Dutch people that experienced starvation during WW2 (hoping you can read it as it's normally behind a paywall).

I also recall reading about Audrey Hepburn who said she was never able to put on weight, as an adult, as she had experienced malnutrition during WW2 in the Netherlands, as a child. It also caused her to have various diseases for her entire life. I think her experienced spurred her on to work with unicef, supporting international charity work to eliminate hunger.

www.nytimes.com/2018/01/31/science/dutch-famine-genes.html

No, it doesn’t. Probably some of those studies are not that great.

Hi, I think scientists now believe starvation does have long-term effects, even for future generations, but the detail is still being investigated. I've attached a link to a NY Times article re Dutch people that experienced starvation during WW2 (hoping you can read it as it's normally behind a paywall).

I also recall reading about Audrey Hepburn who said she was never able to put on weight, as an adult, as she had experienced malnutrition during WW2 in the Netherlands, as a child. It also caused her to have various diseases for her entire life. I think her experienced spurred her on to work with unicef, supporting international charity work to eliminate hunger.

www.nytimes.com/2018/01/31/science/dutch-famine-genes.html

Skye17

So 25%-67% of obese people are metabolically unhealthy, but 25% of non-overweight people are metabolically unhealthy.

Still not looking good. Even on that one aspect.

It's such a wide range that it doesn't sound very carefully researched or scientific!

So 25%-67% of obese people are metabolically unhealthy, but 25% of non-overweight people are metabolically unhealthy.

Still not looking good. Even on that one aspect.

Callistemon21

Skye17

Thinking about the Huffington Post article:

//Studies have found that anywhere from one-third to three-quarters of people classified as obese are metabolically healthy. They show no signs of elevated blood pressure, insulin resistance or high cholesterol. Meanwhile, about a quarter of non-overweight people are what epidemiologists call “the lean unhealthy [presumably metabolically unhealthy, i.e. they do show elevated blood pressure, insulin resistance or high cholesterol].”//

So whereas 33%-75% of obese people are metabolically unhealthy, only 25% of non-overweight people are. That’s a difference right there. Obese people are more likely to get diabetes.

That’s without looking at other aspects of health such as cancers, arthritis and, as the article says, heart problems.

//Individuals are not averages.// True. Because individuals vary, some bodies can cope with being obese better than others. But comparing one group of people with another, such as obese people with non-overweight people, can show that not being overweight reduces an individual’s probability of having various health problems. I’m not sure this journalist quite gets that.

If someone does their best to stay at a healthy weight, they are increasing their chances of good health. Of course it doesn’t always lead to good health, because other factors are involved (like nutrition, genetic predisposition to certain health problems, sleep, stress, substance abuse, social isolation, etc). That doesn’t mean it isn’t worth doing. I wouldn’t like to find out if my body is one of those that will handle obesity without health consequences, in case it’s not.

//diets don’t work/
But even if they don’t, changing what you eat does.

So whereas 33%-75% of obese people are metabolically unhealthy, only 25% of non-overweight people are. That’s a difference right there. Obese people are more likely to get diabetes.

My conclusion from those figures are that the article states that
anywhere from one-third to three-quarters of people classified as obese are metabolically healthy. They show no signs of elevated blood pressure, insulin resistance or high cholesterol.
Studies have shown that 33 - 75% of people classified as obese are metabolically healthy
It is, however, a very wide range

You are quite right. I need to read more carefully!

Having lost 2 stone 8 years ago and not put it back on. All I can say is that diets do work. Eat less and youlose weight. How otherwise do people die of starvation if they do not work.

The problem lies with the people that go on them, and that is a completely different problem.

If the diet you are currently eating (by diet, I mean your daily diet) leads to you putting on weight, not only must you eat much less to loose the weight, you also have to completely change your attitude to food and develop a new and different daily diet, which you enjoy, and which will keep your weight steady at a lower weight.

A simple example: we have been away on holiday with the family for the last week. Almost everyday offered opportunities to eat little pots of ice cream and most days this happened. In the past, even though I do not actually like ice cream very much, I would join in. However this last week I didn't eat any icecream, no sacrifice, no longing. I just saw no reason to eat something I didn't particularly like, so didn't. I have done this with a whole host of foods over the last 8 years. I also do not eat between meals, ubless I have a reason to be hungry.

These changes are difficult at first, but rapidly became my preferred option. I may never ever eat a pot of ice cream again.

Skye17

Thinking about the Huffington Post article:

//Studies have found that anywhere from one-third to three-quarters of people classified as obese are metabolically healthy. They show no signs of elevated blood pressure, insulin resistance or high cholesterol. Meanwhile, about a quarter of non-overweight people are what epidemiologists call “the lean unhealthy [presumably metabolically unhealthy, i.e. they do show elevated blood pressure, insulin resistance or high cholesterol].”//

So whereas 33%-75% of obese people are metabolically unhealthy, only 25% of non-overweight people are. That’s a difference right there. Obese people are more likely to get diabetes.

That’s without looking at other aspects of health such as cancers, arthritis and, as the article says, heart problems.

//Individuals are not averages.// True. Because individuals vary, some bodies can cope with being obese better than others. But comparing one group of people with another, such as obese people with non-overweight people, can show that not being overweight reduces an individual’s probability of having various health problems. I’m not sure this journalist quite gets that.

If someone does their best to stay at a healthy weight, they are increasing their chances of good health. Of course it doesn’t always lead to good health, because other factors are involved (like nutrition, genetic predisposition to certain health problems, sleep, stress, substance abuse, social isolation, etc). That doesn’t mean it isn’t worth doing. I wouldn’t like to find out if my body is one of those that will handle obesity without health consequences, in case it’s not.

//diets don’t work/
But even if they don’t, changing what you eat does.

So whereas 33%-75% of obese people are metabolically unhealthy, only 25% of non-overweight people are. That’s a difference right there. Obese people are more likely to get diabetes.

My conclusion from those figures are that the article states that
anywhere from one-third to three-quarters of people classified as obese are metabolically healthy. They show no signs of elevated blood pressure, insulin resistance or high cholesterol.
Studies have shown that 33 - 75% of people classified as obese are metabolically healthy
It is, however, a very wide range

A very interesting thread. I also don’t believe being obese can be healthy. Apparently the nation was the healthiest it has ever been during the war years because of rationing, particularly sugar. I doubt there was much obesity then. With so much availability now it can be very hard to make the right choices. Lizzypopbottle, I agree with your doughnut analogy, I do that if I fancy something that I know is not going to do me any favours. Most of the time anyway…..

lizzypopbottle

Seven or eight years ago I was approximately eleven stone four pounds and, at my height, was nudging the overweight category of BMI. I didn't like that so I started 5:2 fasting. I lost weight steadily at around two pounds a week until my weight bottomed out naturally at nine stone or so. All these years later I am around nine stone four pounds and I maintain this by....guess what? 5:2 fasting! I'm fasting today, as it happens. Of course it works. Why wouldn't it? I've reduced my calorie intake by about 14%. I lost two stone in weight and it has stayed off! It works because I want it to and I'm determined.

A side benefit is that the pain of my arthritic thumbs and wrists has reduced to a very manageable level. I take no painkillers. This is because there's evidence showing that calorie restriction helps to reduce inflammation in the body.

I learned, on a personal development course through work, many years ago, that most things in life are a matter of choice. If I want a Greggs jam doughnut, every day, more than I want to lose weight, I will choose the daily doughnut (at 245 calories each). If I want to lose weight more than I want what I know isn't good for me, I will resist the doughnut (or whatever is my downfall food.)

Been doing the same thing for a while now and have almost reached my goal weight. It’s about discipline and being able to have those treats too because you’re in control. I’ve found that my Rheumatoid Arthritis is flaring less since I’ve been fasting intermittently too.

Chocolatelovinggran

My healthy, slim 32 year old daughter is a Type 1 diabetic. This is because she has a defective pancreas, nor because of anything she ate.

I think we’re talking about type 2 diabetes here, in which weight is a factor, but it’s not the only one. My OH has type 2 diabetes, and was very overweight when it was diagnosed. Since he lost the weight and watches his diet his condition has improved and he is not on as much medication. A female relative of ours is pre diabetic type 2 and has never been overweight. She has cut out as many carbs as she can and has lost half a stone - to no avail as she remains in the pre diabetic category. Sometimes people can just be pre disposed to type 2 for a number of reasons, including age. I think a lot of people fail to realise how serious diabetes is - both type 1&2. I have a friend who has lost a lower leg because of poor circulation caused by the diabetes leading to gangrene, and my OH has been treated for cuts and sores which take for ever to heal and puts him at increased risk of infection - not to mention the risk to internal organs and systems.

This is all very interesting. I am fortunate to live in an area with an NHS Weight Management Service, which I am in because I do want bariatric surgery, and I need to go through this gateway, quite appropriately.

However - this service has provided so much excellent support advice, and two seminars. Mostly regarding insulin resistance, but particularly about portion control and eating less process/modified food. For example - baby new potatoes instead of baked potatoes, butter instead of spreads, etc. It's really helped.

Namsnanny

sazz1

Totally disagree with this as very heavy weight leads to diabetes, heart problems, joint problems, and premature death.
There are very few obese people who live into their 90s. OH is obese and borderline diabetic with knee and hip arthritis.

Studies show with regards to diabetes, the percentage of average weight people suffering from it is increasing annually.
The percentage of overweight people who have diabetes is higher in that group, but not bu a great deal.
So is weight really an accurate indicator of increased chance of developing diabetes?

Sugar especially in the form of fructose seems to be the issue.

This is from a publication by Public Health England called ‘Adult obesity and type 2 diabetes’:

//Currently 90% of adults with type 2 diabetes are overweight or obese.//

It also says, //Being overweight or obese is the main modifiable risk factor for type 2 diabetes. In England, obese adults are five times more likely to be diagnosed with diabetes than adults of a healthy weight… People with severe obesity are at greater risk of type 2 diabetes than obese people with a lower BMI.//
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/338934/Adult_obesity_and_type_2_diabetes_.pdf (page 5)

It definitely looks like weight is an good indicator of diabetes risk.

(Type 1 diabetes is a separate issue. It’s not thought to be triggered by lifestyle choices.)

Whiff talks really good sense about weight loss. She and a few other stalwarts are on the thread I started almost 4 years ago called I’m a Pear.

We all follow our own method of weight loss and encourage each other.

My mantra is ‘Eat Less for Life’ . Come and join us.

Seven or eight years ago I was approximately eleven stone four pounds and, at my height, was nudging the overweight category of BMI. I didn't like that so I started 5:2 fasting. I lost weight steadily at around two pounds a week until my weight bottomed out naturally at nine stone or so. All these years later I am around nine stone four pounds and I maintain this by....guess what? 5:2 fasting! I'm fasting today, as it happens. Of course it works. Why wouldn't it? I've reduced my calorie intake by about 14%. I lost two stone in weight and it has stayed off! It works because I want it to and I'm determined.

A side benefit is that the pain of my arthritic thumbs and wrists has reduced to a very manageable level. I take no painkillers. This is because there's evidence showing that calorie restriction helps to reduce inflammation in the body.

I learned, on a personal development course through work, many years ago, that most things in life are a matter of choice. If I want a Greggs jam doughnut, every day, more than I want to lose weight, I will choose the daily doughnut (at 245 calories each). If I want to lose weight more than I want what I know isn't good for me, I will resist the doughnut (or whatever is my downfall food.)

I am fat, I have been fat, fatter and horrendously fat most of my life and yet I do not eat alot of sugar, dont eat cakes, biscuits or confectionaries. I do not sit down and eat huge portions of food and I do not eat 20 times a day. I have been on many calorie restrictive diets over the years and have lost the weight but, and here is the but, To keep off the weight I have to remain on a restricted diet which long term is very difficult will power or not because eventually your metabolism slows down and you are back to square one. Well this is what happens to me. Right now I am on a calorie controlled programme yet again and I have lost 26 kilos (i think that is about 5 stone) but it is very hard and I still have another 26 to go. Being fat is never healthy no matter what studies show.

My healthy, slim 32 year old daughter is a Type 1 diabetic. This is because she has a defective pancreas, nor because of anything she ate.

sazz1

Totally disagree with this as very heavy weight leads to diabetes, heart problems, joint problems, and premature death.
There are very few obese people who live into their 90s. OH is obese and borderline diabetic with knee and hip arthritis.

Studies show with regards to diabetes, the percentage of average weight people suffering from it is increasing annually.
The percentage of overweight people who have diabetes is higher in that group, but not bu a great deal.
So is weight really an accurate indicator of increased chance of developing diabetes?

Sugar especially in the form of fructose seems to be the issue.

30 years ago in my early thirties, I weighed 15 stone and was told that if I didn’t lose weight, the physical disability I have would deteriorate much more rapidly as time went on. I lost 7 stone in a year and since then, within a few pounds, I have pretty much kept it off without too much effort.

That was up until 2 years ago when I was diagnosed with Rheumatoid Arthritis, and weight started to creep back on because of the steroids used in my treatment. I’ve been dieting steadily now for three months using a two days a week fasting regime and calorie counting on the other days. I’ve almost lost the extra weight and now I know the effects of the steroids, I’m better placed to keep it off.

The 7 stone I lost all those years ago was purely through strict calorie counting as I have very restrictive mobility problems which ruled out most forms of exercise except a bit of supervised swimming. So when I see anything suggesting that diets don’t work and calorie counting is counter productive, I’m extremely sceptical because I think it very much depends on the individual and what their motivation is for losing the weight in the first place and having the discipline to keep it off.

And I don’t agree that you can be entirely healthy and significantly overweight - having lost that weight I can tell you that my joints were all the better for not being overloaded, and as the weight came off, I found I wasn’t breathless any more and had a lot more energy. Obesity is a problem in the UK but we tend to approach weight loss more in terms of how we’ll look and the clothes we’ll fit into when we lose the weight, rather than the most important thing, which is the health benefits.

JaneJudge thank you.

GrannyLaine apart from Quorn I don't use any ready made meals I make every from scratch . Porridge made with coconut milk for breakfast, home made vegetable and red lentil soup every lunch time even in summer,dinner a stew made with chicken or Quorn plenty of veg and either pearl barley or pasta in it. Lasagne I make using Quorn mince and 50g cheese in the white sauce but only on the top. Each dinner and soup I cook enough for 6 meals . I have health problems and that way I always have meals in the fridge. I have fruit and low fat Greek style yogurt and fruit for dessert after my dinner . I will be 64 next week.

Also it's cheaper buying fresh veg and fruit or frozen and healthier . I make all my own jams and marmalades. Don't like them sweet so reduce the amount of sugar and boil longer .

Silvertwigs

@ GagaJo that is fascinating thank you. I was a life long dieter and very miserable, total comfort! Last year I went to Turkey for a gastric bypass. I’m 8 stone down and never felt better in my life!

I'm considering it.