No jab no job

I've had countless hepatitis jabs over the years, and never developed enough antibodies to say "it worked".

When it came to the point of a liver biopsy being suggested, it was given up as a bad job, and marked on my work record.

I agree with your post Galaxy and I'm also unsure about this.

Would there need to be changes made in employment law? Could refusing to employ someone who hasn't been vaccinated be regarded as discrimination?

It’s going to be left upto employers isn’t it? There are good and bad employers, employers who ignore health and safety in general , employees who just want to make a quick buck. How would you ever really know that Fred’s Homes Electrics had really only employed vaccinated electricians? Because he said so?

Yes I think people in risky jobs( for their clients and for themselves) should be made to have the jab. I worked when I was younger in a social services environment where I was at risk . I had to regularly arrange to have a Hepatitis B injection. If I didn’t ( and I could choose not to) it meant I gave up my job. I didn’t have a problem with having the injection and I also had to remember to go back for two boosters at precisely timed intervals. I had a vaccination card to prove I was up to date.

What about people who simply don't want it?
Are their rights any less than those who can't have it?
Would that be physically unable, or for deep rooted psychological reasons?
Whose rights, or even "just" wishes should trump other people's?

I take your point M0nica.

I agree that working in certain environments would not be possible for people who truly cannot have the jab but I wouldn't want them to be denied employment completely.

How many people are actually truly unable to have the vaccination? Is it a large number?

Suziewoozie - I agree people who don't have a vaccine can't have some jobs. Providing personal care for instance.

I think I was talking in general terms for things like office work (which I do) or working in a shop for instance.

It would be hard to say to someone who truly cannot be vaccinated that they cannot work anywhere at all.

I'll bask in your reflected glory.
I've always been a bit of a basker.

Oooohhhhh Eddie Mair is discussing this on LBC and he’s just read out my Tweet. Fame at last - all ten seconds of it ?

And they all do other work for other people, too.
I assume they will be given the usual priority for the jab based on their individual risk of covid affecting them, rather than the risk to someone that they unofficially help out. (Or, they may decide against the jab entirely)

JaneJudge
The place I have worked in today is lived in by someone who is very much able to give or withhold consent.
They are 99 years old, and as I have said, pay 9 or 10 people to ensure that they and their family member are able to stay home. (Family member can't consent, but would certainly put up a fight if approached by someone with a syringe!)

I'm the only person there "officially", as the other people are paid cash, and swap and change their roles frequently.
Sometimes they shop, sometimes care, gardening, handyman...

I think comparing paedophiles to those who cant be vaccinated is a good example of why I am concerned about the consequences this might have.

Monica I think the issues re caring work is one aspect but why plumbers ? (For example)

I think anyone working in a job caring for vulnerable people should not be allowed to do that job, if they have a health condition that would put the lives of the vulnerable people they are caring for at risk, that includes not having the COVID, flu ot any other vaccine

And yes, Tangerine, that would include those who cannot have the jab, for any reason. Would you let a care home employ Typhoid Mary, or any other person who was a carrier of a disease that could be fatal work in a care environment? Would you let a paedophile work in a childrens home, on the basis that it was hard wired into him?

Nobody should be allowed to do a job, where they can put vulnerable people at risk, for any reason.

MissAdventure

I suppose everybody has the right to expose themselves to the amount of risk they see fit, whether they are the person providing the service, or the service user.

Then that raises the issue of who actually has that amount of autonomy in their lives these days; not many, I suppose.

but then if that person has no capacity they cannot decide and generally next of kin and the care provider manager plus a social worker would make a decision based on the service users best interests

I completely get why people feel we cannot force people though. I have had discussions with the care provider before now surrounding discussions about how on earth can you advise staff how they behave outside of work! it is a minefield and alot of these social care staff simply do not get paid enough for the difficult job that they do.

MissAdventure post some more of your thoughts on consent, rights and autonomy. You’re so right how important these things are. When an issue like this is discussed, it’s so important imo to look at the philosophical/ethical underpinnings.
Jane I absolutely understand why you asked the home but I’m not sure it’s right to ask individuals. Also your point about the residents - yes and I would say that’s part of what I was trying to explain - there are two parties - careers and residents, plumbers and customers. There’s something not quite right imo about saying one party must be vaccinated and not the other
Urm yes I’ve wondered about how foolproof the evidence would be
Tangerine yes I’ve wondered about that too - but then I’ve also got pretty irritated with genuine mask exempt people who don’t think they should limit their interactions with others so maybe of you can’t have a vaccine for medical reasons, it might mean you can’t do some jobs. After all, if your eyesight is poor you can’t be a pilot.

Employers already demand certain vaccinations. You are not allowed to work in the NHS, the military for example unless you have had your full course of routine childhood vaccinations and boosters and Hepatitis B vaccine.

Do you mean this to apply to people who cannot have the jab for medical reasons?

If so, I think it would be unfair. Perhaps there aren't many people who fall into this category but I am sure there are 18 - 67 year olds who will be advised to not be vaccinated.

I intend to have the vaccine. Ideally, I'd like everyone to have it but it may not be possible.

I'm really interested in the whole issue of consent, rights, and autonomy, so could fill the whole thread with my thoughts...
I wanted to to say, reading Shinamae's experience, that I have weekly tests.

At first they started categorically when the test was negative; "you do not have corona virus".
This changed to "at the time the test was taken, you did not have corona virus".
They now say simply "your test was negative".

I suppose everybody has the right to expose themselves to the amount of risk they see fit, whether they are the person providing the service, or the service user.

Then that raises the issue of who actually has that amount of autonomy in their lives these days; not many, I suppose.

Another here who isn’t sure about this issue. Himself is all for it thinks it’s the way forward. I’m dubious about it all and forgeries will be rife anyway I expect on the internet.

I too am uncomfortable that it could be forced on people who have many and varied reasons for not wanting to be vaccinated.
However, there is a precedent; I believe all clinical dental staff have to be immunised against hepatitis b. Is that the right one?
I’m sure all hospital staff are regularly tested for COVID now, as are all new patients, and this is maybe more important than insisting on vaccination.

I have asked if my daughter's staff have been vaccinated. The care provider actually sent a letter out saying they have heavily advised all staff within the organisation to have the vaccine and some figure over 90% had taken the opportunity to be vaccinated. They still continue to be tested twice a week, still wear PPE and SD when they can but obviously a lot of those being cared for require a high level of personal care. I really don't understand why they haven't vaccinated all vulnerable residents yet. We having discussions about jobs when really the vulnerable people need to be kept out of hospital too or are they openly admitting they discriminate against certain groups?

MissAdventure

I'm not sure where I sit on the issue.
I'm absolutely in favour of people being able to decline, but.....

Yes I know but..... It’s a toughie. How do you feel about vaccinated plumbers having the right to only go into homes where customers are similarly vaccinated?

I'm not sure where I sit on the issue.
I'm absolutely in favour of people being able to decline, but.....