Great news amon all the doom and gloom

ooopsminty- this is so so wrong, that family can go against the wishes of the patient, clearly stated in advance. Surely there should be a way of having a donating will made and witnesses by solicitor, that would override this.

When my cousin died, he had asked his daughter beforehand (he had cancer) to be cremated. His sister, an 'extreme' catholic, told the grils they were not allowed to cremate him as it was against his religion and he needed his body for resurrection (!?!). They did what their father had clearly asked for- never had any contact since.

For a family to go against the clear wishes of their loved ones is so so wrong.

I agree with Calendargirl.
Quite honestly, once you have passed on, what is left is just basically a shell and having seen the difference that a liver transplant has made to my friend's son and a heart transplant to another friend's father, they can take whatever they like as I won't be around to see it happen!
I also had a cousin die while waiting for a kidney transplant.
As I am unable to donate blood because I have had a blood tranfusion, they can take what they like!

In Spain they have a much much lower rate of family refusal. Also in this country, I believe there are variations in family refusal rates across the country - clearly there are lessons we could learn from those who manage better rates. I think we could also do more in educating the public generally on transplants - it’s sad how little publicity the Transplant Games get for example.

Doodle whilst its true that in the past tissue donations were sometimes collected without a clear research purpose or research ethics approval, that is very unlikely to happen today. This covers tissues from the living as well as the dead. I’ve signed firms during treatment giving consent for tissue etc to be kept for research purposes and willing so. I also know that some samples may prove useful in the future as new techniques develop.

Years ago, before the real advances in DNA, patients in drug trials were often asked if their blood samples ( taken as part of their clinical care);could be kept for future research. Now these very blood samples and the sophisticated DNA analysis that can now be done on them is leading to much better tailor made treatments as individual DNA can show which drugs work better on which DNA characteristics. It’s a very exciting development in cancer treatments and made possible because people were happy to have samples stored pending later use.

I also believe that brain tissue taken at PM and stored in the past is now very helpful in dementia research.

Out... not put

Mauriherb. The family will still be asked. And can still refuse. Despite the wishes of the patient.

They may well have discussed it earlier and agreed but some people just won't allow it.

It's tragic when organs go to waste but if the family refuse, opt in or put, it will not go ahead

Baggs ''I think jura's idea was that people should be willing to be donors if they wish, should circumstances require it, to be organ receivers. I don't think there was any suggestiion that people who have received organs would then be expected to be donors.

That's my understanding anyhow.

I don't agree with jura's suggestion, btw. It's a bit primitively authoritarian for my liking.''

of course this is what I meant. And of course I am perfectly aware that it could not be applied in real life. I just think that it is hugely unfair to expect and accept donations, and yet not be prepared to donate.

Silly analogy, but I belong to a 'tool exchange' club - we pay a small fee per year for insurance purpose, and we exchange tools, garden, decorating, car maintenance, etc. It works brilliantly- what is the point of all have a chainsaw, and a leaf blower, and tall ladder, paint stripper, garden shredder, etc, etc. Brilliant. but if the next door neighbour, who said he did not want to be part of the scheme and share- turns up to borrow my stuff- am I supposed to lend it to him?

One woman at our babysitting club when kids were young, clocked up 100 hours of babysitting by others- before moving away. She never babysat once!

Not if you want evidence, read my link to what’s happened in Spain.

I actually agree with the proposal. You can, if you choose to, opt out. But when someone you love is dying you can't bear the thought of their body being cut up, it's a difficult question for doctors to ask. This way there is no trauma, no decision to be made by your nearest and dearest. I know a couple of young people who would not be here without an organ donation so maybe I have a biased view

There is another discussion on this subject. It was about 6 months ago and has many more thoughts and info.
If you're particularly interested in the subject it might be worth a read.

Personally I'm against this move and don't believe the evidence is there to support it.

My organs wont be suitable to donate, i have signed my body up for research and teaching though.

I think that many people may be on a drugs or treatment regime for longstanding conditions which would probably render them unsuitable as donors.

If they should opt out of the scheme, is it right that they should be refused an organ donation if they ever should need one?

I do not think so but others may think differently.

Since it transpires that the hospital has to ask the family for their permission in any case, then we may as well keep the opt in preference.

I think there are a lot of people who agree with organ donation but never do anything about opting in or letting loved ones know their wishes so I agree with having to opt out.

suziewoozie as I explained earlier I have no objection to organ donation and have resisted as a donor to do just that i.e. if part of my body can be used to save another life that’s fine. What I don’t want is for bits of me to be in jam jars somewhere or to be cut up just for the sake of it.

SirChenjin I do not need a lecture, as I know far too much about the subject myself

I wasn’t lecturing you, I was explaining what I meant in my earlier post and what I think/hope will happen as societal views change.

Thank you, sw.

The young woman I know of course is on a life long drug regime but has a career, a flourishing social life and is a multiple gold medal winner at the World Transplant Games. Her life span may be foreshortened - who knows - and there have been scares but I have known her since she was in utero and all of us, and most importantly her, are grateful for the life she has been given by the generosity and unselfish love of two bereaved parents.

Forgive me if I take no further part in this discussion, it is too distressing, but yes, we all carry donor cards in our family and the Christmas after Paw had his transplant, the girls and we included a donor card in all the Christmas cards we sent out, inviting our friends to complete them if they did not already carry one.

Spain is a much better example than Wales as the opt out system has been going for decades and there has probably been a cultural shift to reflect that. It shows what can be done

Let’s face it, who goes in for “open caskets” anyway and anybody who has to have a post mortem will be “carved up” (I do apologise for being incredibly tactless, ) than the surgery required for organ harvesting.
While Paw’s liver transplant was a life saver it is rarely a simple business, surgery lasting many hours followed by a punishing drug regime and the possible side effects on the other organs, in his case PTLD (post transplant proliferative disorder) lymphoma,, further surgery, too many stays in hospital to enumerate, and ultimately fatal hepato-renal syndrome and sepsis.
Yes, I am eternally grateful for his second chance at life, but let nobody think it is just a case of an operation and bob’s your uncle.

Baggs here’s some info - hard facts- on Spain which has opt out
www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/spain-leads-world-organ-donation-organ-transplant-health-science-a8417606.html

Thanks, maw.

Quickly glancing at these they seem to be projections and guesses rather than hard data. I think I'll try and find info from places, if any exist, where opt out systems have been in place for a while.

I know two people very very closely who have had organ transplants - a 38 year old ( liver, 10 years ago) and a 72 year old ( kidney, 25 years ago). I simply cannot, because of this and the enormous joy their continuing to live has given to so many of us, have a coherent conversation with people who talk of open caskets and intact bodies. Dead bodies you mean dead bodies which could have given life and joy. The ultimate in selfishness I have to say. It’s worth trying opt out and it can be revisited in a few years time.

And this from the BBC website
Presumed consent
In Wales, where an opt-out system was introduced in December 2015, there has actually been a small dip in the number of deceased donors, from 64 in 2015-16 to 61 in 2016-17. This resulted in a drop in organ transplants from 214 to 187 respectively.
This is not to say the opt-out scheme is having a negative effect - some fluctuation is to be expected - but so far, despite the claims, we don't have any evidence that it is having a positive effect