ECT for 16 year olds !

All I ever asked was ‘what can I do to help her’. Anyway too late.

But does patient confidentiality mean hospitals can carry out giving ECT to a patient over 18 and claim the patient agreed , no matter their mental state ?

It is very , very hard when a loved person is suffering from mental illness and the current legalities prevent relatives from doing what they want to do that may help. I fully empathise with that situation.

I can well understand that Anniebach. I've been disgusted at the sheer lack of transparency within certain professions, particularly when there's been a catastrophe such as a death. Things like this shouldn't be brushed under the carpet.

It still continues in some areas especially if mistakes have been made which they don't want people to know about.
There should be transparency at all times.

My daughter was ill for ten years, and for ten years i heard
‘Sorry, patient confidentiality’ even when I phoned a week before she took her life and said I didn’t want to ask questions but would they please help, I feared my daughter would take her life, i was told by her mental health team ‘we cannot discuss this, patient confidentiality, if anyone thinks a person has attempted to take their life they should phone the police ‘

PECS I'm glad to hear that your brother has, and is receiving support also from within a family environment which is a pleasure to hear.

At one time information regarding the MH of a patient was deemed confidential even to the family who were kept in the dark about the condition of a patient and as a consequence knew nothing of support or follow-ups or the importance of regular medication.
I'm only going back 30 odd years so in that respect we've made " some " progress.

Ellan I am fully aware of the gaps in the MH services and that in the main they are due to poor support, financial and interest, from Health Ministers & governments over the years. My brother lives with us so that I can support him due to his MH.
However the professionals we have dealt with have been very knowledgeable, understanding and extremely helpful and supportive. A GP is exactly that a GENERAL practitioner and so would not be expected to be a specialist but I agree should know when to refer on to a specialist..if they exist locally. They get such poor press I am not surprised few choose that route to specialise in. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Ellan I am fully aware of the gaps in the MH services and that in the main they are due to poor support, financial and interest, from Health Ministers & governments over the years. My brother lives with us so that I can support him due to his MH.
However the professionals we have dealt with have been very knowledgeable, understanding and extremely helpful and supportive. A GP is exactly that a GENERAL practitioner and so would not be expected to be a specialist but I agree should know when to refer on to a specialist..if they exist locally. They get such poor press I am not surprised few choose that route to specialise in. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

PECS, things haven't improved that much over the years.
Why do you think so many who have mental health issues are falling through the net ?
Why are so many patients being sent miles away from their homes to receive treatment in specialised residencies and not local to where they live ?

Because of our lack of trained psychiatrists/psychologists and neuro-surgical staff. Plus our local GP's who have little knowledge of mental illness.

Even the police ( after all these years ) have only just been trained to be aware of anyone who appears to have MHI and there are a few officers who are accompanied by a trained MH nurse while covering their duties.

Kathyd I am very sorry to hear about your brother.

Ellan the MIND charity, which is a patient led organisation I think, is not totally against the procedure. Who are the 'powers that be' and 'they' that you refer to? I am not sure if you mean medical research scientists or D of H or government organisations.

I believe there were some very bad outcomes for patients in the past. Maybe things have progressed now?

This barbarous treatment continues because the supposed "powers that be" can't even find another alternative ! They can't even get a diagnosis right let alone treating with medication, particularly if the diagnosis was wrong from the start.
It wasn't that long ago when neuro-surgeons were performing lobotomies on patients thinking they would be a cure-all for certain mental illnesses. They proved nothing of the sort ! Instead, patients either died or committed suicide.

I understand the horror people feel at this treatment but much is based on its use over 20 years ago. I understand that is better targeted and precise now. I did not see the TV discussion so do not know the details of what sparked this discussion.

At one time we severed injured limbs, removed cancers etc without anaesthetic, anti-septic etc. We still do these operations but with greater technology, research and knowledge and with much better success rates. There will be similar improvements in treatments for those with mental illness too.

It has been in use since the 1930’s yet little research carried out it

That's terrible. We'll be doing ice baths next. They don't know how it works and in a few cases people have died. I suppose if you are desperate and agree after all else has failed then that might be acceptable, but to give it to a 16 year old whose brain is still developing and who cannot make their own decision is just plain wrong and dangerous.

I saw it used in the 70s and it looked barbaric.
I also know some people it's been used on and although the medics would say they'd improved in truth they haven't, they just don't ever want ect again,some saying they would take their own life before they had to go through that again.

Not sure about its use for adolescents but here is a llink from the mental health charity MIND

www.mind.org.uk/information-support/drugs-and-treatments/electroconvulsive-therapy-ect/#.XDyZ9fZ2uP8

My brother was mentally handicapped and in a home. He was given ECT over fifty years ago without parental permission because he was technically in the care of the home.
I often think it must have been horrendous for him. I also wonder if he was abused there - all male staff and a beautiful looking boy. I can never get him out of my mind. He died thirty years ago totally unrecognisable and mute.

Thanks for the link Anniebach it was the middle to tail end of the sky interview that I caught
I think it’s a dreadful ‘quick fix’ that can make things so much worse and I hope we don’t follow US in giving any children and particularly austistic kids this horrible treatment
I m not at all convinced it’s a necessary treatment or that it is the ‘only’ treatment left for patients

Shocked to hear this about ECT !

It is brutal, I saw a young man in a corridor lying on the floor begging for more ECT, shortly after he was admitted .

The memory loss is not always temporary, what harm can this do to a child ?

I have witnessed first hand how it affects people. A beloved relative has had many many rounds of ECT, the latest just 2 years ago. She has massive memory loss, even writing things down doesn't help.
She still suffers with mental illness. I'm relieved to say there are have been no suicide attempts since the last ECT. I cannot say that the ECT has prevented this. I could just aswell be an adjustment in medication and therapy.
I'm horrified that 16 year olds are being subjected to such a barbaric practice. Especially as there seems to be no up to date research into the long term harmful effects/benefits.

Nothing is known of what exactly ECT does to the brain or what, if any, long-term effects exist. It's an area of the body in which nobody has yet got to grips with except that the brain in a psychopath is different to that of a " normal " brain-----but what's normal ?

I remember looking after the patients who had undergone this " barbaric " therapy in the 50's.
I was only a teen myself and to see the aftermath of this procedure made me wonder at the time if there was no other method.
It was cruel ! But that's just my opinion. It's high time that it was replaced with a lesser controversial treatment-----we're in the 21st century, not the dark ages !

For depression counselling is often tried first if that fails then various drugs and sometimes in combination with counselling but if all of that fails and person attempting suicide then ECT van be offered after going through ethics panel. Person has to agree to it. In US it is becoming treatment of choice with celebrities. Despite it only being used with more president depression it does have good success rates. Modern ECT uses lower volts than 1970's and only administered to one side of temple whereas older style ECT was on both sides. Also now given with muscle relaxant so no convulsions. It is not used often in UK but better than psychosurgery which is permanent. ECT lasts 12-24 months then if depression comes back an additional shorter course. Many people who have had it swear by it and say they would be dead without it.

I was shocked when it was said there has not been sufficient research into this treatment. I witnessed the harm it was causing in 1971.