ECT for 16 year olds !

I saw it used in the 70s and it looked barbaric.
I also know some people it's been used on and although the medics would say they'd improved in truth they haven't, they just don't ever want ect again,some saying they would take their own life before they had to go through that again.

That's terrible. We'll be doing ice baths next. They don't know how it works and in a few cases people have died. I suppose if you are desperate and agree after all else has failed then that might be acceptable, but to give it to a 16 year old whose brain is still developing and who cannot make their own decision is just plain wrong and dangerous.

It has been in use since the 1930’s yet little research carried out it

I understand the horror people feel at this treatment but much is based on its use over 20 years ago. I understand that is better targeted and precise now. I did not see the TV discussion so do not know the details of what sparked this discussion.

At one time we severed injured limbs, removed cancers etc without anaesthetic, anti-septic etc. We still do these operations but with greater technology, research and knowledge and with much better success rates. There will be similar improvements in treatments for those with mental illness too.

This barbarous treatment continues because the supposed "powers that be" can't even find another alternative ! They can't even get a diagnosis right let alone treating with medication, particularly if the diagnosis was wrong from the start.
It wasn't that long ago when neuro-surgeons were performing lobotomies on patients thinking they would be a cure-all for certain mental illnesses. They proved nothing of the sort ! Instead, patients either died or committed suicide.

Ellan the MIND charity, which is a patient led organisation I think, is not totally against the procedure. Who are the 'powers that be' and 'they' that you refer to? I am not sure if you mean medical research scientists or D of H or government organisations.

I believe there were some very bad outcomes for patients in the past. Maybe things have progressed now?

Kathyd I am very sorry to hear about your brother.

PECS, things haven't improved that much over the years.
Why do you think so many who have mental health issues are falling through the net ?
Why are so many patients being sent miles away from their homes to receive treatment in specialised residencies and not local to where they live ?

Because of our lack of trained psychiatrists/psychologists and neuro-surgical staff. Plus our local GP's who have little knowledge of mental illness.

Even the police ( after all these years ) have only just been trained to be aware of anyone who appears to have MHI and there are a few officers who are accompanied by a trained MH nurse while covering their duties.

Ellan I am fully aware of the gaps in the MH services and that in the main they are due to poor support, financial and interest, from Health Ministers & governments over the years. My brother lives with us so that I can support him due to his MH.
However the professionals we have dealt with have been very knowledgeable, understanding and extremely helpful and supportive. A GP is exactly that a GENERAL practitioner and so would not be expected to be a specialist but I agree should know when to refer on to a specialist..if they exist locally. They get such poor press I am not surprised few choose that route to specialise in. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Ellan I am fully aware of the gaps in the MH services and that in the main they are due to poor support, financial and interest, from Health Ministers & governments over the years. My brother lives with us so that I can support him due to his MH.
However the professionals we have dealt with have been very knowledgeable, understanding and extremely helpful and supportive. A GP is exactly that a GENERAL practitioner and so would not be expected to be a specialist but I agree should know when to refer on to a specialist..if they exist locally. They get such poor press I am not surprised few choose that route to specialise in. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

PECS I'm glad to hear that your brother has, and is receiving support also from within a family environment which is a pleasure to hear.

At one time information regarding the MH of a patient was deemed confidential even to the family who were kept in the dark about the condition of a patient and as a consequence knew nothing of support or follow-ups or the importance of regular medication.
I'm only going back 30 odd years so in that respect we've made " some " progress.

My daughter was ill for ten years, and for ten years i heard
‘Sorry, patient confidentiality’ even when I phoned a week before she took her life and said I didn’t want to ask questions but would they please help, I feared my daughter would take her life, i was told by her mental health team ‘we cannot discuss this, patient confidentiality, if anyone thinks a person has attempted to take their life they should phone the police ‘

I can well understand that Anniebach. I've been disgusted at the sheer lack of transparency within certain professions, particularly when there's been a catastrophe such as a death. Things like this shouldn't be brushed under the carpet.

It still continues in some areas especially if mistakes have been made which they don't want people to know about.
There should be transparency at all times.

It is very , very hard when a loved person is suffering from mental illness and the current legalities prevent relatives from doing what they want to do that may help. I fully empathise with that situation.

All I ever asked was ‘what can I do to help her’. Anyway too late.

But does patient confidentiality mean hospitals can carry out giving ECT to a patient over 18 and claim the patient agreed , no matter their mental state ?

I remember visiting a work colleague in hospital following a course of ECT in the 1970s. I was horrified. He couldn't stop shaking and he couldn't speak. He was never again the bright young man he had been before. The treatment was given for OCD. He never returned to work and a couple of years later he just disappeared.

Anniebach it has been known that patients were given ECT without their consent.

No surprise Ellan

I have to comment! My Mum had ECT in the early 1960s followed by a lobotomy. The story is very long but to cut it very short she died in March 2016 from Vascular dementia and I am sure it was all connected. ECT may have short term positive results but what is the long term damage? From what I can see this is a barbaric treatment and should be stopped

I think there were many appalling treatments for mentally ill people. I have visited the Bethlem Museum of the Mind and it is awful to see what was done to ill people. However the museum is in the grounds of a working hospital. If I remember correctly they do use ECT but it is not the same as the violent and frightening treatment of the past.

We do not think it barbaric when we use defribillators.

Surely one cannot compare treatment with a defribillator with ECT ?

ECT treatment may not be as cruel as in the past , strapping patients to bed, but the results are the same.

There are a lot of opinions here based on what people saw or heard about in the 1970s! Almost 50 years ago.
Patient confidentiality is important to maintain. There is a Mental Welfare Commission in Scotland (and one in England) which safeguards the interests of patients. If families have concerns they can contact them for advice and support.

Actually ECT isn't nearly as barbaric today as it used to be. I've actually seen it done in hospital when I was a nursing student. In most people it's quite safe and the side effects are minimal - typically some memory loss, usually of the period of time in which ECT was performed. Informed consent is always required first and its use is reserved for cases of depression and sometimes schizophrenia that have been refractory to medications.

It's done under short-acting anesthesia and patients are also given a muscle relaxant. At the facility where I attended practicum it was done in the post-op recovery room.

Thanks for an informed post agnurse
It is distressing to have a loved one who is mentally ill and to feel so helpless to do anything practical. But treatments are always evolving and improving and many, who in the past may have sent years incarcerated, are able to live healthy lives again. Sadly the nature of mental illness means that some cannot accept the help and treatment offered, despite the very best efforts of family and friend as well and medical staff. My aunt had ECT to help with her depression and psychosis. She was elderly and it helped for a few years. When her illness returned she was otherwise too frail to have more ECT treatment.

My dad had ECT in the late 60s to treat his depression. He had other treatments as well and was diagnosed as bi-polar and needed to be medicated. I know his treatment was discussed extensively with him, my mum and his psychiatrist before he was given ECT. I have mixed feelings about it. It worked for my dad but I really don't think it should be given to children.