Assisted Dying

Wilma - I have just posted that you did not hijack the thread but just added useful contributions - but I put it on the wrong thread! Time for bed I feel!

Sorry if I hijacked the thread slightly by mentioning my diagnosis. Just wanted to say I am absolutely not thinking the worst, the exact opposite in fact. These days MS is often only given as a diagnosis after a second episode (depends on MRIs, etc.) and my second episode is much milder than my first. I may never have another for years. Funnily enough, I've just signed a Power of Attorney document for my FIL in case he needs it and have seen many in my career. In due course, I will make sure my feelings are recorded and known.

I think choosing to die when you are not terminally ill will be still be the exception than the norm for decades to come. Changing the law on assisted dying without risk of prosecution though will be an uphill battle whilst this kind of case (and that of the young woman) are sensationalised by the media because it makes reasonable discussion more difficult.

No system will be water tight, but several of the current arguments against assisted dying are being given too much weight when considering what is and is not reasonable.

It wasn't meant to be patronising, river. I was just thinking about how my finding out more (being educated) about organ donation made me change my mind. Very straighforward, as I usually am.

thatbags, I agree.

Riverwalk- I thought my posts were quite clear- I agree it was her right, and that she felt she could not/didn't want to wait. But on the other hand, as a supporter of Assisted Dying, she must have been aware that we are now at a critical stage, with the bill being discussed in the House of Commons in September. As a very intelligent and thoughtful woman, I am sorry she didn't take this into consideration. But I respect her wishes, of course.

bags talk of time and more education to bring us doubters round to your way of thinking is rather patronising.

I speak as an atheist and a palliative care nurse.

I recognise the danger of the "slippery slope" argument, but still feel that this case is out of the ordinary and likely to cause concern. She had the right to make the decision she made, that is not in doubt, but I am saddened that she should feel she might become a burden - does that not reflect badly on our attitudes to those "less-abled"?

We are all dispensable.

ana's point about those with doubts made me think about many years ago when I watched programme about being an organ donor. It seemed to be saying that it was not a good idea to be an organ donor because you might seem dead but not be dead. It put me off the idea for quite some years. Now I am on the organ donors' register. My nearest and dearest know this and don't have a problem with it.

With time and more education about it I think more people will come round to the idea of assisted dying. Not that there isn't a majority in favour of it already according to opinion polls that have been done. I think it is mainly religious groups who oppose it.

granjura on what philosophical grounds should this woman have waited a while?

You're an enthusiastic promoter of assisted suicide - so why shouldn't she just get on with it?

That's the line of thinking that will scupper any hope of assisted dying in this country - 'the slippery slope' argument.

Well, 15.000 has been raised for the publicity campaign in 3 days- way beyond expectations, so that is good. But truly, and I know it sounds awful- in the circumstances, it would have been better for her to wait a while (I know- she didn't want to).

I see this case as the exception rather than the rule - but do we want it to become the rule?

I feel the same, granjura, the case this week especially has not been at all helpful.

You only have to read the posts on this thread to see that those with doubts about assisted dying are now even more distrustful of any proposals to introduce such a practice in the UK.

Soontobe- I won't post detail here- as you'd rather not see. It is of course all on the website I linked earlier, for anyone who is interested.

Of course there is no age limit- as terrible diseases have no age limit either, sadly. But there are fairly strict guidelines- and having re-read them today, I am surprised this woman was allowed to go ahead. She must have been very persuasive and determined- as they would have put objections, I'm sure.

I too feel un-easy about this case- and the timing is very poor (not the woman's fault, i know- and it was obviously very important to her) - as I'm sure this case will be used to counter the proposals for a new law to be debated in the House of Commons, unfortunately. The case portrayed in the video documentary by Terry Pratchett was also very borderline, and also made me very un-easy- and also counterproductive to the excellent arguments for assisted dying.

The UK is not Switzerland, Holland or Oregon and the idea that safety systems and protocols could safely be in place to ensure that there is no coercion or miss-application of 'assisted suicide' is fanciful.

Have we forgotten how many patients were inappropriately put on the Liverpool Care Pathway, and that the hospitals were given cash bonuses per patient for so doing?

The LCP was an excellent and necessary guideline for patients in their dying days but, unfortunately, it was abused.

Are women in their 70s dispensable?

All this talk of Cilla not wanting to live beyond 75 in the same week as a woman who had from the age of 30 not wanted to enter old-age and committed suicide with official help really does fill me with despair.

Dignitas dont have any age restrictions?
And no criteria?

I am not going to google as I dont want anything coming up anywhere.
No one needs answer.

You are right that there comes a time when fighting an illness like pancreatic cancer becomes counter-productive, and that is the time to begin good end-of-life care. We know how to do that, and it would be good if we could all feel confident that this is available when needed.

MS is of course a very different scenario.

My concern is about the concept of being a burden that is so readily endorsed. There are many cultures that honour their elderly.

I agree about Wilma's situation and have clearly said so.

But your words made me think about what my friend said- in a very different case. I've known several cases of regret that time at the end was wasted chasing an elusive and impossible cure, often via very invasive and difficult treatments ' often when the person themsleves knew it was a waste in so many ways- but we 'forced' to agree to treatment because of partner, spouse or family- saying they 'have to fight' and grab any treatment possible.

I was talking about Wilma's specific situation Gj
MS is not pancreatic cancer. There is hope for remission and hope for new therapies.

I agree that acceptance is better than 'fighting on' when all hope of recovery is gone and it is cruel to raise false hope and make people feel they are to blame for their condition.

What I would hope for myself and others is spiritual peace at the end.

swji1 I agree with you. About not being able to afford it- it really is not expensive to be a member, about £150, and then EasyJet flight around £50 or less off peak and midweek. Not encouraging anyone, but cost is not really that high, really- a huge majority of people would have sufficient funds.

I read about this woman and heard her patner being interviewed on the radio. I agree that he spoke really well and sensitively about her choice and how she had really thought about her decision for a very long time. I admire her courage and would hope I would have the courage to do the same (unlikely - I can't afford it). Sometimes we treat animals more humanely than humans in this country and it is a tragedy that people die so often without dignity or comfort. Having seen so many of my relatives spend the last few years of their life very dependent and very unhappy, I would prefer to have the choice to end my life painlessly before that stage.

my dearest friend died of pancreatic cancer 12 years ago, aged 52. When first diagnosed, she fought like a demon- but 3 months later, she realised there was NO way out of that one- she chose to stop treatment and enjoy her family and friends. She chose to come to stay with us in the UK for her last journey, but never made it. I flew in just in time to hold her- she had waited for me to get there so her DH, also a close childhood friend, would have me with him. This moment will forever be etched in my heart.

She hated and got quite angry when well meaning friends and family kept telling her not to give up hope, and to fight, and that she would be ok. She told me 'its hard enough without all this cr*p and lies' - and making me feel that if I die it will be my fault for not fighting hard enough. You can't fight against advanced pancreatic cancer!

Indeed, don't despair.

jane I am a fighter and would fight anything that ever comes my way with all I've got- but sometimes, you have to face the reality, and sometimes (and not in Wilma's case... but in some cases) you have to give up hope- because you know the fight is lost. Some will choose not to keep pretending or wasting the time left fighting- thei choice.

DJ donated too of course- every donation counts at this crucial stage- I do hope others will do too.

Wilma I understand that you must feel devastated at the moment.
But a good friend of mine had suspicious symptoms in 1975, was finally diagnosed with MS in 1991, and although sometimes gets very tired, has been fit and well enough to work at a demanding job and bring up her 3 DCs. She enjoys life to the full.

Never give up hope

But they can only honour wishes within the current Law, no? Not to agree with active assited dying.

MS can be very slow and have very long plateaus with no further deterioration. My history teacher was diagnosed aged 26 and died after having a great career and 3 children, 50 years later. Another friends has had MS for over 30 years- and athough she does have many health problems, is living a full a active life. So everything crossed x

I am sorry to hear about your diagnosis Wilma and hope that things go well for you. I can understand that you must all be reeling at the moment, but I hope that there will be many good times ahead for you.

It may be that a lasting power of attorney might be a good way forward - you can opt to have the chosen attorneys make decisions about your care if the need arises; and if you have talked with them beforehand you can be secure that they will honour your wishes.