I think this country could be in danger of becoming under-nourished..... .....

Do you really think it's PC to be a bit anti meat Bags? I thought we had gone full circle on that, and the rise of the celebrity chef had made meat fashionable (for want of a better term); particularly meat that is organic and preferably reared at home, with a name. OK I'm being facetious but coming to this as a non-meat eater I feel it is now less PC to be vegetarian than it was in say the 70's.

Such a sweet idea, orca . My point was that an epidemiological survey is not scientifically robust enough to establish more than a correlation, which is not proof of anything, and that the problems associated with 'life-style' choices, especially with regard to food, are complex. I do not know how such a 'link' as has been mooted could be scientifically established, but I do know it hasn't been established yet.

Are you saying that dogs were forced to smoke tobacco in order to establish the lung cancer link? If so, I'm sorry to hear it.

nightowl, I suppose perceptions of PC-ness are always going to be rather subjective from whatever angle one looks at the subject in question. For me the important thing is that we have choices.

With regard to food choices and other life style choices we make, I sometimes think we try too hard to eliminate all risk, or what is seen as risk. It's a luxury to be able to do that.

I knew someone who claimed to be vegetarian but ate fish and chicken. A bit like the Catholic Church on the 1600s.

My veggie daughter doesn't eat anything that can move of it's own volition.

Bags IMHO as a scientist you're talking rubbish. How do you think people like myself have to work? I studied population of marine animals for forty years to establish patterns. I could hardly remove whole pods of whales or dolphins and study them under laboritory conditions could I? This population study involved 500,000 people I believe. Of course it's scientifically valid. Have you never heard of the The Nurses' Study?

And yes, that's exactly what happened to thousands of beagles.
smoking beagles

It's always been fashionable to mock vegetarians or people who make lifestyle choices we don't like or understand.

After the menopause I just 'went-off' eating much meat. Don't know why that might be. Anyone??

Are vegetarians mocked these days?

I avoided red meat during the menopause because it made the hot flushes worse, as did any rich or spicy food. OK now from that point of view, but avoid those foods to keep cholesterol down.

orca, I think you have misunderstood me; I cannot have made myself clear. I have not said the study was not valid as far as it went, only that what the BBC news article tells us about it is, essentially, bugger all – certainly nothing new.

You are quite right to say that the science of animal behaviour is based on observations of animals, which includes humans of course.

I am a vegetarian. I dont feel particularly mocked. Other people eating meat around me doesntt worry me. The smell can get to me a bit though.

However after a week in Spanish territory I realise how difficult it is to manage in countries where meat or fish are so important. Good vegetables and salad seemed in short supply and there is no concept of vegetarianism.

Also only white bread. Nice rolls but white sliced bread with the crusts cut off. When I asked for a sandwhich it came toasted.

On the way home I tried every food outlet in Fuertoventura airport to find one which sold a cheese and tomato baguette. Then it had dried oregano on the tomatoes.

Bags I may have misunderstood you. Apologies.

Perhaps 'mocked' is not the best term. Certainly my vegetarian friends find their lifestyle choices are often put under scrutiny by some people who do not agree with their philosophy.

scienceblog.cancerresearchuk.org

This is an excellent blog on the bacon research. Very clear and balanced.

As you say, Jess - an excellent blog entry. Thanks for the link.

I hope you will tell us more about your work with marine animals some time, orca.

Butty, it might have been coincidence, but it was round about the time of my quite early menopause, at the age of 43, that I gave up meat eating. It seemed to make me feel bloated and I felt a great deal better after giving up.

I started liking coffee again after the menopause. I'd gone off it when I was first pregnant.

Bags the last 10-12 years of my working life was spent studying beached whales and dolphins. Not many people know that dolphins beach too. Performing autopsies on fast decaying carcasses. The smell lingers for days. [hold nose emoticon]
All this is a long way from the smell of bacon sizzling in the pan

the best side of humanity

This one's good too

Oops. Thry this one. Must have miscopied

You are right Orca, I have found my choice to be vegetarian put under scrutiny by all sorts of people who seem to be intent on proving to me that I am wrong. I am very happy to talk about the reasons for my choice but don't appreciate being interrogated by people who seem only to want to uncover my own inconsistencies. I am well aware of them and am happy to discuss those as well. It's even worse if you bring your children up on a vegetarian diet - you find yourself virtually accused of child abuse. Even professionals such as doctors and health visitors often seem to be very badly informed.

Orca your work sounds amazing, thank you for the link and to Bags as well.

The American food journalist, Michael Pollan has drawn up one simple rule 'Eat well, not too much, most of it plants' and a corollary: 'If it is made FROM a plant eat it, if it is made IN a plant dont'

With that to guide me I just ignore all the other trivia about what my diet should/should not contain.

Just had a long conversation on the phone with someone who is recovering from an operation to remove a bowel cancer tumour. She says when she questioned her surgeon about why she had it, since she eats healthily and gets plenty of exercise, has never smoked, etc., he said that there is a genetic element in susceptibility to this disease which westerners have and orientals don't. This is fairly new knowledge, it seems.

I have to say that it doesn't surprise me at all. I've never thought that differences in diet could be enough to explain the differences between populations. Ah well, time will tell, but I'm glad I have no sausage and bacon guilt (not that I eat them a great deal, but I'm not frightened of them as some people seem to be).

Seems to me genetic differences between historically separate human populations is a far more simple (Ockham's razor simple) explanation of western cancer propensities than differences in diet. Would epidemiological surveys have picked this up? Doubt it. I wonder how long the science that the surgeon knows will take to filter through to us common or garden types?

Anyway, I think it's good news.

I'm struggling to work out for whom...?

And it still wouldn't mean that diet had no effect

Bowel cancer runs in DiL's family. Her father died of it and there are three or four other cases in the family, not all fatal. DiL and her sister get regular checks because of this.

I think many families have illnesses that appear more frequently than would be expected. Pancreatic illnesses of all kinds appear in my DH's immediate family more frequently than one would expect.

I think all this fuss about diet is a case of peoiple lookinbg for something to woory about and this is as good as any. I have already given the very simple rules that I eat to. I enjoy bacon, I had two rashers at lunch time, but it isnt a dominant or even weekly part of my food consumption so why worry?