Reducing contact because my heart just isn't in it.

Wishing you well lovethepuppies

Thanks for sharing experiences. I find I don't really think of how my father was when we were younger so much. What matter is now. It's so true though that we really don't know what goes on behind closed doors, for better or worse. It was helpful talking to my sister earlier this year though. We've never really done that before and I found out, for sure, that it isn't just a me thing. She has her own issues with our mother, some very similar overlap over the years too.

I haven't posted all the details of what has happened here. I think the specific situation could be pretty outing. I'm still sad about and it didn't really anticipate this happening, but it has and I'm going to find a new balance that considers what's good for me. I'm usually accommodating everyone else and their needs and feelings, I just don't have the energy for that at this time as far as my mother goes.

I can't change it, so I need to work for acceptance and a new pattern. It's not what I want but need to accept is the reality.

As an adult, I got on fairly well with my father as long as I didn't have much contact with him. We spoke on the phone every couple of weeks and I visited him about every 6 weeks. (My mother died quite young so he lived on his own for the rest of his life, although he had a new partner in later years who didn't live with him).

When I had to spend a lot of time at his house in his final year, I was reminded of my childhood and what a selfish, domineering male chauvinist he was. I dreaded driving to his house every day. At his funeral a male relative said "you couldn't meet a nicer bloke" and I simply smiled and agreed with him. I know I did my best for him in his final months but it's taken me a few years to process and I wish I had happier memories.

I had an aunt who was the most perfect, wife, mother, aunt, and grandmother - so long as it suited her, you did what she said, agreed with her. If you didn't she would turn into a monster and, as she was also clever, would make you the perpetrator. Both her daughters estranged her, she fell out with all her neighbours, and friends. She was really a very toxic person. The whole situation was very sad as it went on for sixty years. All is quiet now, but somehow my mother survived by just saying: Ooh, yes, I know.

we do get to choose our relationship with them once we are older at least which is what lovethepuppies is doing, in a mature and healthy way.

lovethepuppies

Smileless2012

Behaviour can be toxic without the perpetrator being inherently toxic or malicious User, so if lovethepuppies says her mother isn't toxic, she's in a far better position to say so then you are to suggest that she is.

Few people are all bad. My mother has done some shocking behaviours, yet she visited regularly, was generous with my children, would be there in a real emergency. I do know some of her generous moves were to meet her own needs (will spare the details). She has some issues for sure, which I don't think she has the awareness of herself, but there are the nice times, the conversations we can share about our gardens, that sort of thing. I think it's partly a hormonal thing on my part that I just don't have the energy to be managing those issues at this point in time, which is why it's come to a head now. It just took a trigger event to bring everything to a head for me.

Good times don't justify the bad times. I'm not saying your mother is abusive (though the behaviors you described are definitely examples of extremely poor parenting), but abusive people are rarely abusive 100% of the time. Abusers usually mix in good moments to confuse their victims and make their escape less likely and/or very delayed.

But at the end of the day, abusive (and neglectful) behavior is never justifiable. No-one is perfect, we all make mistakes, but being able to change once confronted with said mistakes is what separates healthy and toxic people.

This is like a wife with a black eye showing up and defending her abusive husband, saying he's not all bad. He pays the bills, treats her to nice expensive vacations, is good with the kids, etc. That's not healthy, and all of those nice things can be done without abuse being in the mix when being with the right person.

Sadly we don't get to choose our parents, but we do get to choose our relationship with them once we are older at least.

Smileless2012

Behaviour can be toxic without the perpetrator being inherently toxic or malicious User, so if lovethepuppies says her mother isn't toxic, she's in a far better position to say so then you are to suggest that she is.

Its difficult for people to admit that they have toxic parents. lovethepuppies may be (and probably is) too emotionally invested to see things clearly and factually, but the things she describes are objectively toxic.

- Creating/reinforcing self-esteem issues (directly comparing her physical looks to her sister's)
- Invading privacy and overstepping boundaries (checking labels on personal clothes)
- Gaslighting and minimizing her feelings to avoid accountability and change
- Severe emotional neglect

Everyone makes mistakes, but healthy people are able to listen to criticism and make changes. Her mother clearly is incapable of doing so.

There really is only one correct move when dealing with toxic people, and it's reducing contact (which she has already done). You wouldn't normally reduce contact with someone who is mature and capable of change.

I won't be giving my mother all the reasons if she asks btw. It's not worth it, and I still don't want to be too hurtful. I will keep it brief and simple.

There is no point discussing it. Anticipated responses would be: "Oh, that's nonsense." "That's not true." "It's not that bad." Active gaslighting too. From the day I was born, my feelings and experiences have been dismissed and invalidated, so best save my energy.

Smileless2012

Behaviour can be toxic without the perpetrator being inherently toxic or malicious User, so if lovethepuppies says her mother isn't toxic, she's in a far better position to say so then you are to suggest that she is.

Few people are all bad. My mother has done some shocking behaviours, yet she visited regularly, was generous with my children, would be there in a real emergency. I do know some of her generous moves were to meet her own needs (will spare the details). She has some issues for sure, which I don't think she has the awareness of herself, but there are the nice times, the conversations we can share about our gardens, that sort of thing. I think it's partly a hormonal thing on my part that I just don't have the energy to be managing those issues at this point in time, which is why it's come to a head now. It just took a trigger event to bring everything to a head for me.

nadateturbe

"That's important for my peace of mind."
Whatever will achieve this for you when they are no longer here. You don't want any regret, we can't turn the clock back.

I've kept that in mind. They aren't getting any younger. I have no doubt there will be regret, regret that things weren't different, but I also have regret about not being more decisive about some things earlier in life.

If one of them does die, I will regret not having the chance to see them. If they come and some of the reasons I am wary of them doing so happen during the visit, I will regret that I opened that door.

I think the best of a difficult situation is to keep up the daily messages, maybe phone on special occasions and that's enough. I did try to visit them recently, which ended up being the catalyst for change, oddly, but that's what it is.

"That's important for my peace of mind."
Whatever will achieve this for you when they are no longer here. You don't want any regret, we can't turn the clock back.

*I did once tell her to stop discussing weight issues around my children, which she actually did. I'm still fair game though. She checks the labels in my clothes*

Clearly she has some issues about weight.
That's a her problem, not yours.
Talking about weight to children is toxic.
Checking your labels is scary.

Behaviour can be toxic without the perpetrator being inherently toxic or malicious User, so if lovethepuppies says her mother isn't toxic, she's in a far better position to say so then you are to suggest that she is.

Earlier you said she isn't toxic overall but what you just mentioned is in fact pretty toxic.

Some thoughts should stay as inside thoughts, and it's wildly inappropriate for a parent to share those thoughts out loud to a child. It would be inappropriate for anyone for that matter.

You might find it difficult to see it as toxic, since it's what was normal to you back then. In the same way someone from a more warm, loving family would find it difficult imagining being treated that way by their parent.

User143891, I did once tell her to stop discussing weight issues around my children, which she actually did. I'm still fair game though. She checks the labels in my clothes (under the guise of being helpful folding washing, which I've banned her from) and was visibly rattled when I was wearing the same size as her. When she said something about the same size I pointed out that my significantly greater height meant it was impossible to compare anyway. She denied that, but went on a diet as soon as she got home. She has always been pretty critical in general. Not so much of my sister (who she told me, when I was a teen, is beautiful while I'm 'pretty enough'). She's always been quite critical and invalidating of emotions. I've made a point of doing quite the opposite with my children because I know how it feels.

I will definitely be saying no to her visiting later this year. I don't have to worry about her judgement as well as managing the needs of many others her presence creates. That's actually quite exhausting.

lovethepuppies

It's interesting the things you notice when you step back. I have never said no to a visit from my parents before. I don't see them very often anyway. With my decision to not have them visit later this year, I feel relief. My mother has always had an eating disorder that has lingered in her mentality. I have a BMI of 26.5. Not awful, but not skinny either. I eat healthily most of the time and I am fit. I've realised that the first thing that comes to mind when a visit is planned is, "OMG, how can I lose weight before she gets here?" That is toxic, even if my parents aren't toxic overall. She actually uses me and my body to measure herself against. The comments are subtle, but they are there. This is reinforcing for me that this is something that is definitely past due and some firmness about it is justified.

While that is probably the most recent and prominent example currently on your mind about her, but the way she makes you feel is indicative of bigger problems.

You defend and justify her behavior by compartmentalizing it into an eating disorder, which is justifiable because its something she doesn't have control over or is at fault for. But not making your problems, internal or otherwise, into other peoples problems is something everyone has control over. I personally think its egregiously worse when this problematic behavior affects one's child. Maybe if it was just a friend or coworker, it would be more acceptable in my mind.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going to make the assumption that at some point in your life you have attempted to directly communicate your feelings about this personal issue to her and nothing changed.

Subtle comments and making others feel like they must lose weight is not part of an eating disorder, it's a personality disorder.

It's interesting the things you notice when you step back. I have never said no to a visit from my parents before. I don't see them very often anyway. With my decision to not have them visit later this year, I feel relief. My mother has always had an eating disorder that has lingered in her mentality. I have a BMI of 26.5. Not awful, but not skinny either. I eat healthily most of the time and I am fit. I've realised that the first thing that comes to mind when a visit is planned is, "OMG, how can I lose weight before she gets here?" That is toxic, even if my parents aren't toxic overall. She actually uses me and my body to measure herself against. The comments are subtle, but they are there. This is reinforcing for me that this is something that is definitely past due and some firmness about it is justified.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to every post. Lots of OPs start something and then never come back to comment or explain.

crazyH

I don’t know what the fuss is all about - the OP messages her mum daily , that’s more than what my children do 😂 - we have never really been the daily contact family. Everyone is busy with their own lives
We have a Family WhatsApp group and are in contact that way. We are a big family and if I started phoning each and everyone daily, it would take me all day.
So something has happened, where the OP now feels she is being treated as second best.
But she is doing the right thing, maintaining contact but not going over the top. No one is getting hurt. [flowers%]

I think you've got the sum of it. I admit messaging isn't the same closeness you get from a companionable phone call, but that's what I feel I can do right now.

I also agree with Smileless that not all estranged parents are toxic. Relationships and people are complex.

I also don't think that anyone ever takes a pivot like I have over one event. Usually it's a last straw kind of thing. I have a lot of other extra demands on my life that give me less capacity to deal with difficult relationships at this time too.

Allsorts

You tried all you could to take care of your parents and help them in their old age but they wanted to stay where they are so you did your best. I can understand how this must be so frustrating for you and hurtful but they have made their minds up an realise you cant help from a great distance.I do not see what you are doing is anything like what Wyllow describes.

That's not what it's about though. I haven't said what it's about on this thread for privacy reasons. As far as the offers made, it was to give them options that address their concerns, which I'm glad I did. If it all goes belly up, and I'm sure it will one day, at least I can say I did my best and they made their choices. That's important for my peace of mind.

maintaining contact but not going over the top I agree crazy that this is the best approach in the circumstances.

I don’t know what the fuss is all about - the OP messages her mum daily , that’s more than what my children do 😂 - we have never really been the daily contact family. Everyone is busy with their own lives
We have a Family WhatsApp group and are in contact that way. We are a big family and if I started phoning each and everyone daily, it would take me all day.
So something has happened, where the OP now feels she is being treated as second best.
But she is doing the right thing, maintaining contact but not going over the top. No one is getting hurt. [flowers%]

I know what you mean Allsorts.

Not all parents who are estranged are toxic. Sometimes those involved in the relationship simply don't get on which can be because of the AC's personality or issues, rather than the parents.

Assigning labels can be helpful but not always necessary. What's described as the yellow rock technique is what a lot of people do in adult relationships that they're not altogether at ease with; common sense IMO.

It comes across in your posts lovethepuppies that you are trying to balance your needs with those of your parents by creating the emotional distance you need, while maintaining the relationship.

It's admiral and you're to be congratulated .

You tried all you could to take care of your parents and help them in their old age but they wanted to stay where they are so you did your best. I can understand how this must be so frustrating for you and hurtful but they have made their minds up an realise you cant help from a great distance.I do not see what you are doing is anything like what Wyllow describes.

Allsorts

Wyllow, I cannot stand all these techniques you mention to break away from people, its mind games and I think unkind, like sending someone to ‘Coventry’. Just be honest.
All this mention of toxic parents, if they were violent, cruel and neglectful just tell them honestly that you need to put all that behind you and cannot have a relationship with them and don't. Children come first and they shouldn't have a childhood scared and unloved. Poster doesn't see her parents, doesn't want to see them so its all pointless anyway, I should think by now they have a good idea anyway,
I do think however that we remember, that none of us are perfect parents, that doesn't make you a bad one, we are learning everyday and the majority of us really love our children and do our best,

Yes, that's why I offered to buy them a house near me so I could care for them in their old age, tried to organise a visit to them even though it's really hard for me and far away (which is the crux of the issue btw, even if I haven't posted specifics) and have previously called every week in spite of a very demanding life because my mother was going through some health things and I thought it would help her world be less small. That really sounds like someone who didn't want to see her parents, not.