Reducing contact because my heart just isn't in it.

Of course both are logical bakestrategic. It's perfectly logical for someone who had a loving, supportive and secure childhood to lie so they don't have to take responsibility for their behaviour.

You assume wrongly MarieElla. I doubt he would want us back in his life but if he did, that is not what we want now.

That's almost correct PoppySeadBread but our ES is just as responsible.

Smileless2012

Well yes that's to be expected isn't it bakestrategic.

An abusive parent isn't going to say they've been abused because they're abusive, anymore than an EAC will say they've estranged their parents who gave them a loving, supportive and secure childhood.

Thankfully we are not seen as monsters or undesirable people because our youngest son estranged us PoppySeadBread nor should we be, because we're not.

I think the difference is that one is logical while the other is not. It's logical for an abusive person to lie about not being abusive: to not have to take accountability for their behavior. It's not logical for someone to lie about their childhood or their current relationship with their parent(s) in order to orphan themselves. Not to say it never happens, but the illogical nature of it suggests it's very rare.

MarieElla

*Smileless2012 * I am sorry you are an estranged parent. I assume you've taken responsibility/apologised for your part but your child is still not willing to have you back in their life.

I believe there is nothing for her to apologize for or take responsibility of.

In another post she mentioned that her estrangement only happened because of her child's spouse.

Smileless2012 I am sorry you are an estranged parent. I assume you've taken responsibility/apologised for your part but your child is still not willing to have you back in their life.

Well yes that's to be expected isn't it bakestrategic.

An abusive parent isn't going to say they've been abused because they're abusive, anymore than an EAC will say they've estranged their parents who gave them a loving, supportive and secure childhood.

Thankfully we are not seen as monsters or undesirable people because our youngest son estranged us PoppySeadBread nor should we be, because we're not.

In terms of the reasons for an adult child to estrange their parent(s), they are the primary source for their reasons; the parent is a secondary source. This discrepancy between estranged adult children's reasons for estranging and what the estranged parents say the reasons are is perhaps a reflection of what the estranged adult children say, that their parents didn't listen to them. I'm speaking in generalities based off of available information, of course.

"So are we to assume that the vast majority of estranged parents are lying"

Yes, because generally they benefit a lot more from lying in such a situation.

There is no real benefit in being an orphan, so choosing by yourself to become on requires excruciating circumstances (such as being born to narcissists).

But parents who find themselves disowned benefit a lot from lying. No-one wants to be seen by their community as a monster or undesirable person whose own kids want nothing to do with them.

So are we to assume that the vast majority of estranged parents are lying MarieElla?

I don't accuse those who estrange of lying, why would I? There are many reasons why estrangement happens, sometimes it's the parents who are to blame and sometimes it isn't, as reported in stories from EP's and surveys they take part in.

We have been estranged from our youngest son and only GC for more than 13.5 years but as you pointed out earlier, this thread isn't about me.

Smileless2012

I'm not taking it personally MarieElla.

What are you basing your statements on? What research exists to substantiate your claim that estrangement usually happens after many chances have been given and the parent doesn't change or take responsibility?

That is what the adult children report in stories, surveys, etc. For that to not be true, we would have to assume the vast majority of estranged adult children are lying.

I am basing it on the friends and extended family members who have cut their parents out of their lives.
I know two of my aunts both claim they have done nothing wrong and therfore my cousins have had no choice but to estrange themselves. Estranged friends have had similar experiences.
None of them have done this lightly.
I keep my distance from both aunts too as they tend to be judgemental and self righteous.
What's your experience of estrangement, if you don't mind sharing?

I'm not taking it personally MarieElla.

What are you basing your statements on? What research exists to substantiate your claim that estrangement usually happens after many chances have been given and the parent doesn't change or take responsibility?

I did say 'generally ' in my post.
But I will also say it's rare an adult child cuts off their parents easily, it's usually after many chances have been given and the parent doesn't change or take responsibility.

Disclaimer, Smileless2012
This is not about you.
I kmow nothing about your situation, so please don't take it personally.

My own situation has no bearing on my responses to you MarieElla. I'm disagreeing with your generalisations about the reasons for low or no contact.

It isn't so rare PoppySeadBread as any research on estrangement and its causes will show you.

Smileless2012 you might start another thread about your own situation as I think it's very different to the OP's.

It's true that sometimes children wrongly disown their parents.

But I think that case is so rare that parents disowning their children (for marrying the wrong race, gender, religion, caste, etc.) happens much more frequently than it.

And it's often the case that it's because of the adult child's and/or their partners behaviour. That isn't the case for the OP, which is why each one should be seen and responded too individually without sweeping generalisations.

It's often the case and is in the OP's.
Her mother has takes no responsibility for the damage she's caused in their relationship.

That's unfair MarieElla. What you say is one of many reasons for low or no contact but there are others.

EAC are just as likely to tell other relatives friends and neighbours that they did nothing wrong when they have.

Yes it is wonderful crazy in fact for me, everything lovethepuppies has posted has been lovely to read. Her insight, compassion and understanding shine through .

Isn’t it wonderful that the OP has replied to most individual posters, unlike some who start a Post and then never return either with a comment or update - much appreciated 👏

They also tend to tell other relatives friends and neighbours that they did nothing wrong, that their child is spoilt and entitled....generally.

I think the biggest reason adult children for going no or low contact is the parent's inability to accept responsibility for their actions and a lack of willingness to address them.
It's a form of old fashioned arrogance in thinking that as the parent they must be respected regardless of how they behave.

I understand veronica how but she's your mother grates; hearing but he's your son grated on us .

It's difficult for anyone who hasn't experienced it to understand and even shared similarities of estrangement, doesn't necessarily mean there's a total understanding of why someone feels and responds the way they do.

I realised over the years that my mother saw me as her property and not a separate feeling person. I existed for her comfort and to make her happy by doing and saying exactly what she wanted. If thwarted she would fall into blind rages followed by silence and I would desperately try to talk her round apologising for the "misdemeanours" I had unknowingly committed.
Eventually I realised she wasn't normal and treating her as a normal person wasn't ever going to lead to a normal relationship. So I started to disengage and when she raged, said I wasn't going to listen and walked off or put the phone down or whatever. In time she improved a little but the expectations were still there. When you finally realise it isn't you, it's her, you might feel more able to move on. The sad thing for you is that she probably treats other people well and so they can't believe she is as difficult as you say. The number of people who used to say to me "but she's your mother". It's very difficult for most people to understand that just because someone's a mother they are automatically loving and caring.

It's fear lovethepuppies; the fear of it happening again because his estrangement almost broke us.

It's taken years to rebuild our lives which began by moving away 4 years after we were estranged. Looking back to that time I don't know how we got through it and I don't think we'd have the strength to do so again.