Reducing contact because my heart just isn't in it.

friendlygingercat, I relate to a lot of that in one way or other. I'm sorry you went through all that. It's really not fair. It is definitely true that you reap what you sow.

Smileless: "How did you find out so much later that the counsellor told your mum it was your father who was the problem and not you? It looks to me as if that particular session wasn't for you at all. How could it have been if you were only present for 10 minutes? confused."

It came up in conversation a few years back, not all that long ago. My mother brought it up, I can't remember the context. No, the session wasn't for me. The session was for my mother to deal with my issues and 'problem behaviour'. That problem behaviour was actually self defence. I'll just say it - I screamed when my father came rushing towards me when angry, because I knew he was going to hit me, and he was strong. The first time was involuntary but it stopped him in his tracks. After that it became a self-defense thing where I knew, if I screamed, he would stop before he started. So it did become a 'thing' I did to protect myself when threatened. My mother's main concern seemed to be, "What will the neighbours think?!" if they heard me. But I was the problem because I screamed.

As a child, I felt I was blamed for my father's bad behaviour. I was. I carried that into adulthood, that belief I was blamed. Defending myself in a way I accidentally found worked made me the problem. So I was the problem that needed fixing. The counsellor told my mother my father was the problem. I suspect my mother downplayed my father's role to the counsellor and probably never mentioned what I was protecting myself from, but I always perceived as the problem with them. When the counsellor mentioned it she did seem disapproving. I don't know what my mother told me. If she'd given me a chance to talk about it I would have told her, "I have to scream." I felt like I had to. A child shouldn't feel like they had to do that at all.

The counsellor also diagnosed me as gifted (just conversation with my mother as the basis) which my mother decided not to tell me, as she didn't want me to get a big head.

I didn't leave my kids alone with my parents at all and always promised myself I would leave and take my children with me if a man was ever like that with my children.

It's not easy having a 'golden child' for a sibling friendlygingercat my brother was my mother's as it turned out, to the detriment of them both.

It must have been so empowering when you told your mum you weren't returning home because you were going to study for a masters and the university had offered you employment.

Good for you .

No it isn't circular. You obviously don't understand what I'm saying which has nothing to do with impact or intent, so there's no point in continuing to engage,

Smileless2012

The behaviour of estranging loving, supportive parents who gave them a secure childhood.

Right. Your logic is circular, I don't expect you to understand or accept that though. Further, the one who experienced their childhood is who can best determine if what they experienced was love and support. The impact is what matters in that case, not intent, but you don't accept that either. Best of luck to you.

As a child my pretty sister was the golden princess. However if I had somehow managed to miss this my parents told me firmly where I was in the social hierarchy when I was in my 20s. They told me that 2/3 of the estate was going to my sister because she had "given" them two grandchildren whereas I had stated my "selfish" intention to be child free.

The result was that as the years progressed I stepped further and further back from my parents. There was no huge family row but I just felt less and less involved. The process completed when I moved to another city for university. Weeks went by and I forgot I had parents because I had another life. I can remember ringing my mother and telling her that I, the first member of the family to get a degree, had got a 1st. Her response was "Well I suppose you'll be coming back to Liverpool now but don't think your staying here for free while you look for a flat."

She was astonished when I told her that, no, I would be staying on to study for a masters and I had already been offered work at the university. It didn't stop my mother from bragging to the likes of neighbours that her daughter was a university lecturer although she had no part in that attainment.

Needless to say I never went back. The relationship became ever more distant.

As ye sow so shall ye reap.

The behaviour of estranging loving, supportive parents who gave them a secure childhood.

Smileless2012

Of course both are logical bakestrategic. It's perfectly logical for someone who had a loving, supportive and secure childhood to lie so they don't have to take responsibility for their behaviour.

"Their behaviour." What behaviour are you referring to here?

I haven't said EAC are avoiding being accountable for their behaviour by estranging their parents bakestrategic. I do wish you'd stop asking me questions that have nothing to do with what I've said.

Smileless2012

What does your post have to do with mine @ 20.42 bakestrategic? I haven't said estranging oneself from loving parents is also illogical.

What behavior are EAC generally avoiding being accountable for by estranging their parents?

Another lovely thought provoking post yesterday @ 23.37 lovethepuppies.

You're absolutely right in that your mum needs to feel how she feels and concentrate on your own feelings. It's often the case in relationships regardless of who they're between that there's a final straw and what might be that final straw for one, wont always be the same for someone else especially if there experience in general is different.

You're also right about different thresholds as what is insurmountable to some, wont be insurmountable to others.

Reconciling after estrangement I agree doesn't come without risk whether you're the one who estranged or the one who was estranged. I've seen some who have reconciled say that a line has been drawn with the decision made by all parties, that the whole episode will never be mentioned again.

That wouldn't work for me. How can you be confident that it wont happen again if unresolved issues remain .

It's good that having counselling enabled you to stand your ground and tell your mum that you wont allow your father to verbally abuse you, even though she allows him to do so with her. I couldn't help thinking that it's sad that he treats her that way.

It's so hard for you and for anyone in this situation when despite everything, there is love there. I've often thought how much easier it would have been for us if we could have turned the love off, but of course you can't.

How did you find out so much later that the counsellor told your mum it was your father who was the problem and not you? It looks to me as if that particular session wasn't for you at all. How could it have been if you were only present for 10 minutes? .

None of us are perfect lovethepuppies and it's incumbent on us all to take accountability for our own shortcomings, but that doesn't mean being held accountable for things you haven't done especially by those who have.

I think some parents never accept what they did was wrong. They think it's ok because it's the way they were raised or/and minimise the treatment saying you were a difficult child.
I think this lack of acceptance and taking responsibility is the main reason for estrangements to become permanent.

PoppySeadBread

Also, on top of the hitting and yelling, I too was expected to be the adult in the room; constantly managing my parents' emotions with never any room for my own. Any negative feelings I may have felt were ignored, dismissed, minimized, mischaracterized, punished and so on. It really messes you up.

Seems to be a common pattern with dysfunctional parents.

Yes, that all sounds very familiar. I know none of us are perfect parents but it seems hard to think you'd be oblivious to some things (like the importance of acknowledging feelings).

My children are adults now and they seem happy enough. Old enough that I've been able to ask them if they think I might have over compensated with things like acknowledging and supporting feelings, but they seem to think that was actually very good. I think I've been good at taking accountability where needed. I can accept I'm not perfect. I think that's a very important thing. It's not the mistakes that create the difficulties but the invalidation and dismissal of them.

My mother took me to counselling for one session when I was 14 because of my fear of my father when he was angry. My mother thought I was the problem and I had issues. I've always thought that she blamed me for my father's behaviour because of that. I only found out a few years ago that the counsellor had told her that the problem wasn't her daughter, it was her husband/my father. Unfortunately I never got the chance to talk to the counsellor about that myself. I was outside most of the time. I got called in for about ten minutes but was never asked to speak. Pity. I could have used the support.

Also, on top of the hitting and yelling, I too was expected to be the adult in the room; constantly managing my parents' emotions with never any room for my own. Any negative feelings I may have felt were ignored, dismissed, minimized, mischaracterized, punished and so on. It really messes you up.

Seems to be a common pattern with dysfunctional parents.

He may have been better of the two parents you got, but that doesn't change the fact they both were likely ill-equipped to be proper parents.

The good times never justify the bad times. Plenty of people and families can have good times without there ever being bad times. The concept may seem alien to you when you never grew up with it, but it exists and depending where you are, it may even be the norm.

I'm glad you set a good example for your kids. Too many dysfunctional families allow their intergenerational trauma to continue because it's too much work to do better, or they may not even realize that it's not ok or normal to begin with.

It may seem silly and obvious to me now, but it was quite a shock when I first learned that it's not normal for parents to hit their children or regularly yell at them as a form of communication. There are a lot of other toxic behaviors that are less obvious than physical and verbal abuse, such as your example of having to manage your parents' moods.

There really is only one correct way to love others, but a million different ways to hurt others. That's why it's important to revaluate your childhood experiences, identify problematic behaviors and deprogram yourself from what you used to consider as normal. For your sake, and especially your kids (if you have them).

That brings up so much for me PoppySeadBread. Having to placate my father who took out his anxiety on us in my teenage years. Everyone had to tiptoe around the anxiety. No making him responsible for getting help for it, so we could live normal lives while he dealt with his own feelings.

The only people who know this story were present, so not too worried about it being outing: Even when I was in my 30s my mother said to me, when visiting, "Now, if your father comes home in one of his moods tonight, which he probably will today, just let it wash over you and ignore it to keep the peace." At that point I'd had some counselling and I told her straight, "No, I'm not going to do that. If you want to allow him to be verbally abusive to you, then that's up to you, but I'm not going to accept it or show my kids that it's okay." This brought on the usual eye roll that let me know I was 'being difficult', which I always was when I was unhappy about something, having feelings or wanting to have personal boundaries.

Yet I could also have lovely conversations with my father, he is actually the one I'd go to for empathy over my mother. It's hard because there's this love but then there's also that sense that some things as not okay.

The fact your mother has ever made you feel responsible for her feelings is a moral failing on her part as a parent, especially that she has instilled such a deeply ingrained urge in you to fix her mood.

It does hurt when we don't have good parent-child bonds, but the relationship is completely lopsided, with the burden and responsibility of fostering a good bond falling on the parents. Considering that they are the ones who choose to being the relationship, and the fact that they are full-grown adults taking care of you from the moment you're born. Not to mention that every single child is born loving their parents. It is as natural as breathing air and eating food because their survival hinges on loving and trusting their parents.

It takes a lot of work to sever that natural, automatic bond children have with their parents.

Gosh, a lot to catch up on. I do appreciate the perspectives of both sides of it. I think estrangement hurts on both sides, even when one side has chosen it. I can see that my parents are starting to see that I have pulled back and knowing they are having feelings about that pains me. At the same time, last night I was thinking about how my mother feels about me not calling and realised I had to resist the old pattern of being responsible for her difficult feelings. It's easy for me to think mother upset I haven't called = call her to let her know I care and make her feel better. No, she has done something that affects the relationship and I'm not going to smooth things over this time. I have to let her feel how she feels and worry about how I feel this time.

No relationship is perfect. I think, for me, it's less about the one incident and more lots of different incidences of being trampled that have done it. The incident that triggered my response here is probably relatively minor but it's like the last straw that resulted in something flipping in me.

I do understand why a parent might not want to go back once an estranged child comes back. It's risky and they're probably emotionally drained enough that they just can't give it the energy. Maybe a bit how I'm feeling at the moment.

I don't think these things happen without reason. We probably just have different thresholds for where it happens. We have different coping styles and communication styles, some which are more productive or detrimental than others. One reason I choose to talk about it here is that I am good at second guessing myself (a side effect of always being told my feelings and needs were wrong as a child), so I value other input. It helps me consider things.

I think we can all agree that we all want to have good parent-child bonds. When we don't have that, it hurts.

What does your post have to do with mine @ 20.42 bakestrategic? I haven't said estranging oneself from loving parents is also illogical.

Smileless2012

Of course both are logical bakestrategic. It's perfectly logical for someone who had a loving, supportive and secure childhood to lie so they don't have to take responsibility for their behaviour.

What behavior? Estranging oneself from "loving" parents is also illogical.

Of course both are logical bakestrategic. It's perfectly logical for someone who had a loving, supportive and secure childhood to lie so they don't have to take responsibility for their behaviour.

You assume wrongly MarieElla. I doubt he would want us back in his life but if he did, that is not what we want now.

That's almost correct PoppySeadBread but our ES is just as responsible.

Smileless2012

Well yes that's to be expected isn't it bakestrategic.

An abusive parent isn't going to say they've been abused because they're abusive, anymore than an EAC will say they've estranged their parents who gave them a loving, supportive and secure childhood.

Thankfully we are not seen as monsters or undesirable people because our youngest son estranged us PoppySeadBread nor should we be, because we're not.

I think the difference is that one is logical while the other is not. It's logical for an abusive person to lie about not being abusive: to not have to take accountability for their behavior. It's not logical for someone to lie about their childhood or their current relationship with their parent(s) in order to orphan themselves. Not to say it never happens, but the illogical nature of it suggests it's very rare.

MarieElla

*Smileless2012 * I am sorry you are an estranged parent. I assume you've taken responsibility/apologised for your part but your child is still not willing to have you back in their life.

I believe there is nothing for her to apologize for or take responsibility of.

In another post she mentioned that her estrangement only happened because of her child's spouse.

Smileless2012 I am sorry you are an estranged parent. I assume you've taken responsibility/apologised for your part but your child is still not willing to have you back in their life.