Near Estrangment but confused about something

I can only speak to my own experience. This is no one elses experience and in no way am I suggesting that this applies to anyone but myself.

My father sat by and watched my mother emotionally abuse us as children. As an adult, the betrayal I felt because he didn't protect me was worse than I felt from the mother who abused me. Because he knew and did nothing to protect me and keep me safe in the one place I was supposed to be safe, in my home.

Not feeling safe on a consistent basis as a child leads to lifelong trauma that must be dealt with as an adult. It is especially difficult when my father shrugged his shoulders and told me it wasn't that bad, he didn't want to have to deal with the consequences of it at the time, and I should move on as an adult.

There is a ton of research in the world about this if anyone wants to learn more of the adverse effects of living in an environment that isn't ideal for children to be raised in online, from reliable sources, if anyone wants to read more.

I don't know what happened obviously.
But how your daughter is being to you could (COULD) be called abuse! There is such a thing as elder abuse.
I think you should probably try to find a councillor or psychologist - maybe who would see you both to try to avoid permanent estrangement. Including your GC is not the best idea, Things once said, cannot be unsaid.

That's a good idea Colls and would at least be worth you suggesting it Starfire.

eazybee

Starfire has listened and is listening to her daughter. She asks for evidence and is called psychotic in return.
Unfair to say: That would impact your ability to parent, there were probably many times you weren't able to parent well dealing with something awful like that.

Too much credence given to unsubstantiated allegations.
It seems the child is believed unconditionally; the parent has to prove their innocence; difficult when child refuses to discuss it, face to face, with a professional or at a legal hearing.

Thank you. I fear this is the case. Truthfully it is so hurtful that I would indeed walk away without looking back, but there is too much to consider; my grandkids, my husband and my son. I do not want to be the one to end it all. I feel my daughter actually would but at the same time she has inquired about out future, a will/trust to the point I think she really wouldn't want to get cut out of that.

Colls

I don't know what happened obviously.
But how your daughter is being to you could (COULD) be called abuse! There is such a thing as elder abuse.
I think you should probably try to find a councillor or psychologist - maybe who would see you both to try to avoid permanent estrangement. Including your GC is not the best idea, Things once said, cannot be unsaid.

Yes, it is elder abuse. But she would never recognize that. She is the one who is right and justified. It's horrible what a friend and a divorce has done to us.

Colls

I don't know what happened obviously.
But how your daughter is being to you could (COULD) be called abuse! There is such a thing as elder abuse.
I think you should probably try to find a councillor or psychologist - maybe who would see you both to try to avoid permanent estrangement. Including your GC is not the best idea, Things once said, cannot be unsaid.

I have suggested family counseling and she refuses.

imaround

I can only speak to my own experience. This is no one elses experience and in no way am I suggesting that this applies to anyone but myself.

My father sat by and watched my mother emotionally abuse us as children. As an adult, the betrayal I felt because he didn't protect me was worse than I felt from the mother who abused me. Because he knew and did nothing to protect me and keep me safe in the one place I was supposed to be safe, in my home.

Not feeling safe on a consistent basis as a child leads to lifelong trauma that must be dealt with as an adult. It is especially difficult when my father shrugged his shoulders and told me it wasn't that bad, he didn't want to have to deal with the consequences of it at the time, and I should move on as an adult.

There is a ton of research in the world about this if anyone wants to learn more of the adverse effects of living in an environment that isn't ideal for children to be raised in online, from reliable sources, if anyone wants to read more.

Thank you for sharing that. It is something that I was oblivious to and maybe your father was too. Different generations are used to different things, different ways and the knowledge of the times how children are effected is newer knowledge. Its tough to not have vital information at the time something is happening.

To be verbally abused is awful,for the other parent to stand by and,do nothing is as bad.

I do understand that, and gave him grace for that as I healed. Unfortunately, it was him not taking any accountability many years later, when I had to process her abusive behavior because it started affecting my children, that led to the final betrayal I felt. This is all water under the bridge for me at this point in my life, thankfully.

Again, this is my experience only and I am not assuming or suggesting that it applies to anyone else here. I hope you and your daughter are able to come together and both be heard so that your relationship continues.

Allsorts

To be verbally abused is awful,for the other parent to stand by and,do nothing is as bad.

Yes. If it was her being verbally abused. It was me.

imaround

I do understand that, and gave him grace for that as I healed. Unfortunately, it was him not taking any accountability many years later, when I had to process her abusive behavior because it started affecting my children, that led to the final betrayal I felt. This is all water under the bridge for me at this point in my life, thankfully.

Again, this is my experience only and I am not assuming or suggesting that it applies to anyone else here. I hope you and your daughter are able to come together and both be heard so that your relationship continues.

I am sorry it worked out that way. At least you gave some grace. I never got that.

agnurse

Your daughter witnessed emotional violence. That IS abuse, even if the violence wasn't directed toward her.

By that example if I witness a murder does that mean I suffered as much as the person murdered? Yes I might suffer trauma. But I wasn't murdered. I do not get the logic of witnessing emotional abuse is the same as receiving it. And the reality is the only coursevof action would have been to divorce him and who knows if livingv with him that she would have gotten it instead of me. Becaus4 I had no method to support my kids since I married very young and was pregnant before my first anniversary. School, Career. Didn't have those and custody goes to the provider everytime. Would have lost my kids.

Smileless2012

I don't see the necessity in telling her children that because she doesn't agree with how she was raised, that she's raising them differently Starfire.

I can understand your concern that she maybe portraying you to your GC as a bad mother and bad GM. That's a horrible thing to do and confusing for them.

As a child, if my parent(s) were telling me that one of my GM's was a bad mother and bad GM, I'd be worried about seeing her and wondering why they were letting me do so.

I hope now you've raised this with her that she stops for the children's sake as well as your own.

I'm assuming from your post @ 10.09 that you are still with your husband, her father. Is she as critical of him as she is of you? Has she told the children that he was a bad father and is a bad GF?

I agree Madgran that this is not something Starfire should be discussing with her GC as as you say they should not be piggies in the middle and it's a shame that this is what the mother is doing.

Any issues she has with her mother should be addressed to her, She should not be using the children in this way.

I agree with your post eazybee.

Yes and thank you for acknowledging this is not right how she involves my grandkids. My grandson seems to have bought into it, for now, but my granddaughter has told me she doesn't believe what her mother says.

She's the younger one, only at 5 years old does she has so much perspective.

I have never said anything to the kids, only when they mention I may say well that makes me sad, but we just think differently and have different opinions but sometimes none of the opinions are bad or good. They are just different.

I can only imagine if I told one of them they had a bad mom. LORD!! But I would never do that.

And interesting, isn't it, to answer your question yes, I am still with him but my daughter has NOT been as critical and neither child has ever said anything about her calling him bad, father or grandfather.

Which seems kinda unfair, isn't it?

I am hoping, Smileless, that she might stop or curb it a bit now that I have brought this up, even if she defended it in such a rage, namecalling, etc, Perhaps that rage came from getting caught?

I do know, my grandson had taken to me from the time he was a baby and back then, she had no issue with that.

Since her husband left, I think she started to be jealous of that because she started saying weird things like the way my grandson tried to dominate my attention made her "sick".

When she said that, I had no response. He was only 3 at the time. What 3 year old doesn't want to dominate attention anyway?

So now , she's got him thinking ill of me.

Maybe it's temporary. I did reach out to my ex son in law for advice and he said my grandson seems to talk about me
favorably to him. So maybe all is not lost.

Starfire,you are not listening to your daughter and making it all about you. You were constantly shouted at, cannot you see how that would affect children, you either had to shout back or submissively take it, what do either of those responses say to your children. I presume as soon as children were old enough to say whom they wanted to be with you left. If not, why not. Has the abusive husband long since gone? If not why not. It is hard on your own but millions do it. No where near as hard as being a doormat. I cannot understand your daughter wanting you visiting as the verbal is still in front of grandchildren. I find it troubling you involve grandchildren against their own mother . I was estranged, missed my gd so much but did not go to court for access as that would have upset the child and made parents resentful and child comes first. Get more involved with your job, keep busy before all this blows up, let your daughter parent.

I have never said anything to the kids, only when they mention I may say well that makes me sad, but we just think differently and have different opinions but sometimes none of the opinions are bad or good. They are just different

That is good Starfire. In your original comment you mentioned your GCs comments and I incorrectly assumed that you had asked them. Apologies.

Allsorts the abusive husband seems to still be there
and maybe that’s at the hub if it all your daughter sees you still married and remember the grief you (and therefore they) went through and is resentful
To feel unsafe in your family setting is terrifying for a child and it may not be they that felt unsafe from their father but seeing it and hearing you being unsafe has the knock on effect

The big problem is you are both on the defensive and you really do need mother /daughter counselling so both sides are heard and little hints of what’s troubling are eked out, but you say the daughter won’t go, maybe it could be helpful for you yourself to have some.

For whatever reason and I don’t take the …I was young and with no money scenario many people get out with nothing but the clothes on their backs, but for whatever reason you stayed and are still with the man and maybe your daughter sees that that poor treatment is still apparent and doesn’t want it for a role model for her children
Serious question Does he still shout at you ? Are you so used to it your take little notice ?

Madgran77

*I have never said anything to the kids, only when they mention I may say well that makes me sad, but we just think differently and have different opinions but sometimes none of the opinions are bad or good. They are just different*

That is good Starfire. In your original comment you mentioned your GCs comments and I incorrectly assumed that you had asked them. Apologies.

Accepted. I know in message forums things can get confusing. Even messaging itself....my daughter would not just sit and talk with me face to face about this. I asked and she just kept messaging. It was a mess. But it ended with me caving, yet again, apologies galore although she never has accepted them. I don't' want to cause the family to bust up; bad enough her marriage did already.

So I'm going to try once more. But I was really ready to give up when my grandson started saying things and got mad at me, wouldn't look at me during the whole last visit. But my former son in law assured me it wasn't how he felt about me and still speaks highly of me to him.

I was so angry at my former son in law for taking off with another woman for a long time. We have since made amends, since my daughter decided to amend with him too for the sake of the kids, I figured why not. He was always kind to me. And he still seems to be. It's a shame when two people divorce, it divorces the rest of the family too.

BlueBelle

Allsorts the abusive husband seems to still be there
and maybe that’s at the hub if it all your daughter sees you still married and remember the grief you (and therefore they) went through and is resentful
To feel unsafe in your family setting is terrifying for a child and it may not be they that felt unsafe from their father but seeing it and hearing you being unsafe has the knock on effect

The big problem is you are both on the defensive and you really do need mother /daughter counselling so both sides are heard and little hints of what’s troubling are eked out, but you say the daughter won’t go, maybe it could be helpful for you yourself to have some.

For whatever reason and I don’t take the …I was young and with no money scenario many people get out with nothing but the clothes on their backs, but for whatever reason you stayed and are still with the man and maybe your daughter sees that that poor treatment is still apparent and doesn’t want it for a role model for her children
Serious question Does he still shout at you ? Are you so used to it your take little notice ?

Well, still being with him I don't think is a problem for her. She's never said hey you need to split with him. Funny thing is, he gets no blame, no criticism. It's pretty unfair.

I've had counseling.....2 in fact. Now, I was told some stuff; one of them said it sounds like you are not allowed to be yourself, have your own opinions or own morals without being attacked for them. I told them things I did, and both said I sounded like a typical grandma. They did understand how my daughter could be upset but wondered where is any understanding for me.

When I honestly described a couple of events that happened, one counselor just shouted to me she's a grown woman acting like this!!!! (it involved my daughter using technique children are told to use on predators to get them away from them, that her friend had taught her.

I know this because my daughter mentioned it to me weeks before. She got mad at me and threw me out with this technique.)

I had offered one day if my daughter wanted to talk about her husband leaving her, I was here for her. Instead of saying thanks mom, or no mom I wouldn't care to, she shouted omg I would never ever confide in you. So, I made the mistake of showing some tears and it enraged her so she threw me out of her house, using that technique her friend told her about.

It's meant for children when confronted with a possible predator. They shout loudly 3 times, Go Away Go Away Go Away and then if the person doesn't move fast enough away, then get physical; and then threaten to call the police.

So my daughter shouted 3 times, then started pushing me fast towards the door, so much so I dropped my purse which I had started to put on my arm.

Then, she threatened to call the police.

In shock I said out loud is this what (her husband's name) you did to him?

I shouldn't have said it, I know. I later apologized. However, I can't help but wonder how he was treated now.

Anyway, that's when she turned me around (still pushing towards the door) and slapped me across the face.

She put hands on me and slapped me. Yet I'm the bad one...

That was a terrible incident a few years ago.

We seemed to recover, got along well for awhile, but then she started on the grandkids, telling them all sorts of stuff about me, so now things got worse again.

I have to wonder. Is it because her divorce will be finalized in less than 2 months now? Idk. He didn't file for 5 years and now he did it and she didn't contest, as they already co parent and he didn't want a part of their condo. But the real end of her marriage will be at the beginning of February next year.

I shouldn't have to pay for that.

My husband, well, at least he never slapped me across the face, for anything. He still tries to shout but now I shout back and I will not sleep with him (yeah, we are old but he won't give that up) when he does.

He's learning now.

Frankly, if I lose the grandkids in any way (even just emotionally) I think I' will be done with the family, period. Except my son; he tends to be alot like his dad but there are plenty of times he acts like he cares about me, unlike my daughter.

Don't forget a slap is obvious (and over quickly). Verbal/emotional abuse can be drip drip drip forever... and is not visible.

My experience in refuge work is that it is hard to leave whatever age and circumstance... but those with nothing before they do leave, at least don't have to get their heads round leaving stuff and status behind.

It's very hard to start again, yes you were young and with no money but as BlueBelle says that isn't really an "excuse" for bringing children up in an abusive home.
I think you have maybe decided that you would have lost the children to your husband as a sort of "get out" excuse from having done nothing..

These are the sorts of things I would be putting to my daughter I think - "I was afraid I'd lose you to him - but see now that could just have been my excuse to myself for doing nothing".

I can't say anything will work to help you reconcile however all is not lost as you are still in contact (however "shouty").

On a side-note...
If you have been working with a councellor who shouts at you I don't think they are very well trained and I'd certainly look for another.

Oh I feel so sad for you. It's no wonder if you are still in this situation that you are not really seeing how badly your daughter has been impacted.

You are unable to really even accept how bad this situation was for you, of course you cannot accept how it would affect a vulnerable child or his and your part in what has led you here.

I wish I knew the right words to pull your head out of the sand but I think you are too shut down and unable to see past how you cope with all of this and expecting your daughter to go along with your needs. You need to understand that all of this is wrong for you and also that it was wrong for the small child it was your job to protect.

I think unless you remove yourself from abuse you will not be able to remove your daughter from the impact it had because, you cannot see the truth. You are describing abuse by a significant other and downgrading that while describing pain from your daughter and imagining that to be the real abuse here. Please seek professional support.

undines

By no means everyone who claims to have been abused HAS been abused. There is a trend to blame parents for everything, and these days there seems very little talk of any kind of duty of care towards parents - just expectations and criticism. Be honest and kind with yourself, Starfire 57, if you have honestly done your best then maybe rest with that? I am sorry to hear what you're going through.

Oh, thank you so much.......it' hard.

InRainbows

Oh I feel so sad for you. It's no wonder if you are still in this situation that you are not really seeing how badly your daughter has been impacted.

You are unable to really even accept how bad this situation was for you, of course you cannot accept how it would affect a vulnerable child or his and your part in what has led you here.

I wish I knew the right words to pull your head out of the sand but I think you are too shut down and unable to see past how you cope with all of this and expecting your daughter to go along with your needs. You need to understand that all of this is wrong for you and also that it was wrong for the small child it was your job to protect.

I think unless you remove yourself from abuse you will not be able to remove your daughter from the impact it had because, you cannot see the truth. You are describing abuse by a significant other and downgrading that while describing pain from your daughter and imagining that to be the real abuse here. Please seek professional support.

Thanks. I think though, in a way, the whole childhood thing is a red herring. We were just fine, very close, despite the bonding with the friend over the friend's alleged abused childhood, I think after high school and the friend moved away (although they still stay in contact and visit) things were good again so I chalked up that last year of high school where she acted different towards me to just teenage stuff.

Things were so wonderful, we were like best friends. When she became pregnant, she expressed excitement of making me a grandma.

When the baby came, he took to me and she couldn't have been more thrilled.

Then her husband meets someone else and it's almost an overnight split.

At first, she acted different with me after the friend came to visit. IDK. We seemed ok though.

Slowly over the last few years, she became critical and watched everything I did with my grandson. Actually said one day it made her sick how he dominated my attention.....he was 3 for god's sake.

Kept getting worse. Started wanting me to not buy things for him, started criticizing me in front of him, etc.

She was pregnant with #2 baby when husband left.

Started comparing. My granddaughter just didn't take to me until one day around almost 2, she noticed how I was caring for a boo boo she had and seems from then on, she really loved me. We get along great.

But my daughter still compares the two, like it's wrong that my grandson and me still got along too.

Then it got worse and worse with talking about me behind my back to the grandkids and here we are.

I have had therapy. My daughter refuses family therapy.

NotSpaghetti

Don't forget a slap is obvious (and over quickly). Verbal/emotional abuse can be drip drip drip forever... and is not visible.

My experience in refuge work is that it is hard to leave whatever age and circumstance... but those with nothing before they do leave, at least don't have to get their heads round leaving stuff and status behind.

It's very hard to start again, yes you were young and with no money but as BlueBelle says that isn't really an "excuse" for bringing children up in an abusive home.
I think you have maybe decided that you would have lost the children to your husband as a sort of "get out" excuse from having done nothing..

These are the sorts of things I would be putting to my daughter I think - "I was afraid I'd lose you to him - but see now that could just have been my excuse to myself for doing nothing".

I can't say anything will work to help you reconcile however all is not lost as you are still in contact (however "shouty").

On a side-note...
If you have been working with a councellor who shouts at you I don't think they are very well trained and I'd certainly look for another.

I don't blame the counselor...she was appalled and taken aback. It is shocking.

I've had 2. I'm done though, with that. They can't control what my daughter does and they can't stop me from being hurt by it.

Again, would have lost my kids. Not willing to risk that, I also have a son. Maybe if it was just her, then she might have ended up being the one he yelled at though......

What does your son say about the situation?

MarieElla

What does your son say about the situation?

Well, he will hug me and look concerned when things get rough, but he has told me he doesn't want to hear about it. It's funny because my daughter can let he and my husband know her side of the story.

I think overall, the yelling my husband did, the accusations towards me DID in fact effect both kids view of me, although my son is less supportive of my husband due to the fact he also got some of the direct yelling; my husband seemed to treat my daughter differently in that sense, a little princess so to speak.

I missed a huge red flag at the beginning of our marriage; he just up one day threatened me that I had better never, ever lie to him like his mom would lie to his dad.

Now, I was extremely young and naive; I did not know if that was true or why, but later I realized his dad was very imposing and abusive so I am guessing my MIL did whatever it took to keep the peace by lying.

So, that explains why when my husband was upset about something and I would explain a situation, he would accuse me of lying and manipulating.....in front of my kids.

I suppose years of that and they started believing I was not a person to be trusted and perhaps, I was a bad person?

I don't know, but over the years they seem to have adopted that attitude towards me, that I do things or lie to "get my way" is what I have heard.

It's maddening because, what way? I most always do what my family needs or wants, I usually center my decisions based on their wants. Perhaps that's where I've made the mistake.....things I want usually go the wayside or I notice when I actually need or want something,

I am called selfish. I rarely ask for anything, but you know, we all need something. And most times, it's simple things and I am refused if they either don't like it or feel like it's not worth their effort.

This is mainly my daughter, somewhat my husband and rarely my son. It hurts to know the lack of caring or even something as simple as a compromise would make me happy.

With my daughter, it's her way or the highway.

My husband sometimes bends, if he thinks he'll get more sex. Which is really getting old because we are getting old. He's 70 and I am 68.

Not that age is the end of that sort of thing, but come on, every other day? Like when we were first married? I just can't do that anymore, physically or mentally.

And I noticed at times when I do try to comply, his lack of his male part working correctly somehow is my fault. I notice he cannot get it going if we don't wait a couple days at least, or if he is tired. I can tell, but he says somehow I am not doing things right suddenly.

This is ridiculous. We are old people. Intimacy is nice but it should not be the end all be all of life.

It's always my fault in my family, most the time, when something doesn't go to plan, or I don't do things in accordance to expectations.

My son isn't quite as bad as the other two when it comes to blame, but he will go there sometimes.

At one point in the past, he actually didn't like her. He noticed and mentioned the influence of her friend.

He was the first to tell me he thought my daughters friend was a piece of .....well, at the time, I had no clue, this was when my daughter was last year of high school.

I was perplexed, he explained some things he saw, but I brushed it off.

Things after that, when the friend moved, after high school, pretty awesome between me and my daughter. I was thrilled she found the friend's brother and had her soulmate. I liked him too, and he was kind to me. Both expressed how they loved the way I was with my grandson. It was heaven.

Then, just six years ago, he pulled the rug out from under her, found this younger girl , who, just had the experience of her dad leaving her mom for someone else. And it's been downhill since then.