Son has signed out

I engage because I choose to stillawipp, those who feel differently of course can choose not too.

Yes User it happens. People lose their temper and depending on the degree of that loss it may or may not be abusive.

You see it as abusive behaviour but in the context of all we've been told, I don't because I respond to the information I've been given which is something you appear to be unwilling or unable to do.

Perhaps his yelling did allow him to have more control over his children while they were smaller and younger but as we don't know that was the case, it shouldn't be assumed that perhaps it was.

Smileless2012

Whose excused it bakestrategic?

Abusive behaviour is a pattern of actions used by someone to gain or maintain power and control over another person, often causing intimidation, manipulation or psychological harm.

Please tell me where in NRD's posts you have seen any of the above.

I agree that we can't know for sure if NRD is abusive in general because we don't know the frequency of his outbursts. However, he said it's "not common," so we know it wasn't a one off. The outburst he described was abusive, and we don't know if he's made any efforts to prevent further outbursts. People have minimized his behavior by saying it wasn't emotionally immature and "it happens."

Oops, that was to Smileless2012

It’s just such a colossal waste of time arguing with people who will never change their stance - I’m sure you have better things to do with your time. If you just don’t engage then they’ll stop baiting you, surely? Life is too short….I do worry about you constantly having to fight these battles - it must be exhausting for you, especially at the moment when you are grieving a loss.

Whose excused it bakestrategic?

Abusive behaviour is a pattern of actions used by someone to gain or maintain power and control over another person, often causing intimidation, manipulation or psychological harm.

Please tell me where in NRD's posts you have seen any of the above.

The context may explain the reasons the poster "lost it." But that doesn't excuse the behavior or make it not abusive.

BlessedArt where has someone told NRD that what he's done wasn't so bad and who on this thread has tried to normalise abusive behaviour?

FGS let's keep our responses to what NRD and those who have responded have actually said and keep our personal agendas and imaginations out of it.

IMO, the disagreements between posters are not about differing opinions on estrangement stillawipp they're about the language used when responding.

For example, telling someone that the way they responded is insane, that that's not what a proper parent does and they're not a proper parent, isn't trying to understand and help but to 'rub salt in the wound' and more often than not, comes from someone with estrangement in their own family but not someone whose been estranged, but someone who themselves has estranged or whose spouse has done so.

That's why this is often picked up as projection.

There's also the twisting of what someone has posted when replying which is bad enough or saying that things which have never been said, have been.

For example maybe User could say where she's seen anyone say they believe because it's a parent yelling at their child, that makes it somehow more acceptable rather than worse.

As I posted earlier on this thread, context is everything. He didn't 'lose it' just because his son asked him not to pop round uninvited, there's a lot more to this which anyone who took the trouble to read both of his posts, would know.

Ah, sorry, the OP’s original post explaining his circumstances and asking for advice, I should have said.

@MissAdventure

I absolutely get to decide to speak out against minimising abusive behaviour. Under no circumstances is there anything wrong with that. My comments were as much counter to those defending NorthernRiverDad’s behaviour as it was to his own rug-sweeping. I don’t have to defend my intent here. I know that I am giving advice less likely to fuel the rift between him and his children than anyone else trying to normalise the abusive behaviour. Telling someone who has already alienated their children with their behaviour that the behaviour wasn’t so bad is akin to instigating that rift. There is no path to reconciliation in such “advice”, and if one is giving advice that can further harm a family’s potential to heal, it is not me who needs to do some soul searching. Someone comes for advice about a rift with their child, I cannot imagine arguing about how one party should “mature” and accept objectively uncivil behaviour. Not in a million years.

If my desire to not instigate further distance between this father and his child is bothering anyone, feel free to exercise your right to ignore my posts.

I don't understand why losing it and shouting/ swearing at someone is acceptable in any circumstance.

You could be fired from your job

It could be grounds for divorce

It could be criminally prosecuted if it caused fear and distress

It could be classed as harassment

I wouldn't want to be around anyone who shouted and swore at me for asking them reasonably not to come to my house unannounced.

Swearing in general doesn't really bother me at swearing at me while shouting is not something I would tolerate.

What was the original point in your view?

Well, that’s just what I have realised - some people will never change their opinion on estrangement, so it is pointless trying to argue with them. A complete waste of time and sooooo boring for everyone else. Just ignore baiting comments & keep to the original point!

That's very true.
Me included in that.

To be fair, it takes two to make an argument. If posters didn’t constantly challenge others’ posts instead of just ignoring them, OP’s questions would be addressed much better for them!

BlessedArt

It’s verbal abuse, without question. Personal anecdotes of normalised uncivil behaviour don’t negate the fact that shouting and swearing at people in anger is verbal abuse. We don’t get to decide for others which individuals we should accept such abuse from either. Judging anyone as immature or cruel for refusing to engage in such a relationship is an alarming mindset to have.

Just as you don't get to decide to home in on one particular poster, ad nauseum, as you and your cohorts have for at least the last 4 of 5 years, in various guises.

Even more alarming, I'd say, and I'm glad people are beginning to see it.

Wow - no wonder so many posters never come back…!

It’s verbal abuse, without question. Personal anecdotes of normalised uncivil behaviour don’t negate the fact that shouting and swearing at people in anger is verbal abuse. We don’t get to decide for others which individuals we should accept such abuse from either. Judging anyone as immature or cruel for refusing to engage in such a relationship is an alarming mindset to have.

I wouldn't call labeling "losing it and swearing at loved ones" as verbal abuse - going in guns blazing. Seems like a hard, but accurate truth. We're all different indeed.

I could advise all sorts of things, but i don't see any reason that someone would take heed of me.
Probably best not to swear, but i wouldn't go in all guns blazing, talking of abuse.

Still, we're all different.

Ok, well in the situation with the earlier poster and his son, who he lost it on and swore at. Would you advise him to make efforts to not behave that way in the future?

I'm not really saying anything much.
Mostly just musing.

It depends on the situation, etc.
As everything does.

I have seen parents on here who have gone to ridiculous lengths in order to not lose contact.

That, i would not do, but I'd probably not swear if that was what it took.
Of course, i would expect reciprocation from my adult child, that they too, would stop doing things if i thought they were abusive.

MissAdventure

I'm on the fence there.
I wouldn't and couldn't bend myself into someone i don't recognise in order to keep my child/ren in my life.

Hopefully, my child wouldn't expect it of me, either.

Just to clarify, you're saying making changes to not lose it and swear at loved ones, equals bending oneself into a someone they don't recognize?

I'm on the fence there.
I wouldn't and couldn't bend myself into someone i don't recognise in order to keep my child/ren in my life.

Hopefully, my child wouldn't expect it of me, either.

Swearing + losing it equals a lack of control. Acknowledging this may help NorthernRiverDad work on fixing his fixing the behaviour. Downplaying it could very well ensure he is permanently estranged. I guess it’s a matter of choosing between being “right” or having one’s children in their lives. I know what I’d choose every time.