Son has signed out

MissAdventure

Who's downplaying it, though?

You by saying “it happens” and Smileless by saying it’s not abuse. I think your question has been answered multiple times.

I didn't dismiss it.
I said its a lost opportunity to see if lessons were learned, if you cut someone out.

MissAdventure

Who's downplaying it, though?

Literally anyone who insinuated his son was “immature” or dismissed the verbal abuse by saying “it happens”.

bakestrategic

In the case of NRD, I don't see anything in his posts about changing his behavior. He seemed to expect his son to get over it after apologizing.

Agreed. I feel sorry for him to the extent that he doesn’t seem to grasp how damaging the behaviour is, but I do hope he eventually gets to a place where he can fully own that he can’t just explode at family and expect the level of engagement he desires. I may have missed what estranged him from his daughter but even if it seems to him unrelated to his situation with his son, there is clearly an underlying issue that is killing his close relationships. He wants to be closer to his children. I understand that. As a parent I hope he gets to a place of self-reflection to potentially allow it. Accountability goes a long way for many. I don’t think all hope is lost for his family.

Who's downplaying it, though?

Smileless, Once again, I can use the language I choose whether you agree or not, so long as it does not violate the rules of the site. You telling me otherwise is (failed) policing and making a futile attempt to control my language. You can argue (alone) about it if you like but I don’t have to post how you like, don’t have to use words you approve of, and I won’t. I said what I said. Agree or don’t. I don’t have to justify my choice of words to you, nor will I modify my posts to suit whatever you deem acceptable. Any further attempts to control how I express my observations will be ignored. Happy to discuss the topic at hand, but will not further discuss my choice of wording.

And to all those saying “it happens”. Yes, verbal abuse does happen. It’s still wrong and equally wrong to downplay it.

User15839

Smileless, perhaps you could have remained close to your son, or at least closer than you are now if you never attempted to control his life by adding stringent conditions to the home you attempted to gift him and his family.

Just some food for thought.

Please quit.

In the case of NRD, I don't see anything in his posts about changing his behavior. He seemed to expect his son to get over it after apologizing.

If someone is immediately cut out then there is no opportunity to know if they have changed.

Often, an apology without changed behavior can effectively be manipulation.

Yes, Smileless, NRD tried many forms of apology - that’s why I questioned whether User had actually read his post. But I see she’s given it her own unique interpretation.

User, that last remark to Smileless is unnecessary & way too personal.

Is that a question?

I expect it is.
I wouldn't know.

Smileless2012

No bakestrategic, we were very close to our ES for 27 years, he and I in particular until he got married and our first GC was born.

I think your assumption that anyone disagreeing with your definition of abusive behaviour would be because they've been on the receiving end of it, or are themselves abusive is a perfect example of why we should keep our responses to what we're told.

I wasn't aware that you know NRD personally User; you seem to 'know' an awful lot about him that hasn't been disclosed in his posts, and I have no idea how some of what you've said to NRD could possibly be construed as helpful TBH.

I am not trying to police (your) language BlessedArt I merely asked where you'd seen anyone on this thread say NRD's behaviour wasn't so bad and who had normalised abusive behaviour.

If you are unable to do so because those things haven't been said that is not me trying to police your language. Claiming things have been said here that haven't been is for me incredibly controlling and inappropriate. Something which I'm sure I have relayed to you before.

I would appreciate you not accusing me of doing something that I haven't done.

I didn't ask if you were close; people can be close and the relationship still be unhealthy. I'm asking if you or your DH "lost it" and yelled and cursed at your ES over things such as normal boundaries. I'm assuming no based on your response, but it wasn't clear.

Hopefully not.
Sometimes you can both lesrn from a flare up, and take measures so that it doesnt happen again, and that's a positive outcome.

NRD has said in his post that he's apologised more than once Delila and even apologised for apologising.

Of course it happens MissA but it doesn't have to be deal breaker does it.

No bakestrategic, we were very close to our ES for 27 years, he and I in particular until he got married and our first GC was born.

I think your assumption that anyone disagreeing with your definition of abusive behaviour would be because they've been on the receiving end of it, or are themselves abusive is a perfect example of why we should keep our responses to what we're told.

I wasn't aware that you know NRD personally User; you seem to 'know' an awful lot about him that hasn't been disclosed in his posts, and I have no idea how some of what you've said to NRD could possibly be construed as helpful TBH.

I am not trying to police (your) language BlessedArt I merely asked where you'd seen anyone on this thread say NRD's behaviour wasn't so bad and who had normalised abusive behaviour.

If you are unable to do so because those things haven't been said that is not me trying to police your language. Claiming things have been said here that haven't been is for me incredibly controlling and inappropriate. Something which I'm sure I have relayed to you before.

I would appreciate you not accusing me of doing something that I haven't done.

Excuse me, it doesn't treat it as unavoidable.
It states a fact, as I've said.
Of course it's avoidable, any unpleasntness is avoidable, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen within family groups, couples, neighbours, even complete strangers.
Hence - it happens.

User, “it happens” is an objective fact.

“As one would never think twice or feel bad about yelling at a car that stopped working, he yelled at his son without hesitation or remorse. Since to him, his son is more of an appliance that doles out time, attention and affection; rather than a human worthy of respect”

You don’t know any of that.

“If he actually saw his son as an individual, he wouldn't yell at him, out of frustration or otherwise.

Or at the very least, he would apologize for his behavior and try his best to change to make sure it doesn't happen again”

Do you know whether he apologised or not? Have you read NRD’s post?

There's a whole lot of room between perfection and not being abusive. Saying "nobody is perfect" in response to unmitigated verbal abuse is another example of minimizing the behavior in my opinion. It implies the behavior is acceptable and/or unavoidable. How we respond and learn from our mistakes is what matters. I believe User already said that.

User, not many people complete a check list before trying for family. We are all different, just because you tick every box you think acceptable, your children might find you insufferable we do not know. The facts are we are not perfect, thank goodness, even you, people sometimes do the wrong thing. Most parents do their best and thats what matters. Children want to feel heard and be loved and guided. Some children are challenging to put it kindly, they have issues. You and a couple of others talk down to people you don’t know. Hardly kind or judgement free behaviour.

OK, I’ll leave you to it then..

To add, I don’t have anything to “project”, as I’ve never shouted and sworn at my children after popping up at their homes unannounced, so perhaps the projection is coming from those that have and are defensive of such actions. My intent was and remains clear: to help a parent who is alienated from their children accept that it is better to work on the anger that caused the outburst than to minimise the behaviour and remain upset at their child. If his son distanced after such an incident—the worst result possible—it’s reasonable to assume that his son is like many who class it as completely unacceptable. Objectively, it’s verbally abusive. It doesn’t matter that anyone here doesn’t agree. The son clearly does and it is he whose opinion is important in this case. It was the son, not anyone here, who was on the receiving end.

Smileless2012

BlessedArt where has someone told NRD that what he's done wasn't so bad and who on this thread has tried to normalise abusive behaviour?

FGS let's keep our responses to what NRD and those who have responded have actually said and keep our personal agendas and imaginations out of it.

I can paraphrase if I like. The language used to minimise what he did was exactly what I described. It’s the same as telling him it wasn’t so bad. It was that bad.

Please stop trying to police my language. Gransnet has moderators. Unless you are secretly one, you’ve no right to attempt to control my posts. It’s incredibly controlling and inappropriate.

Voice your disagreement, but it’s incredibly disrespectful for you to insist on controlling the words of others. I have relayed this to you before.

Smileless2012

I engage because I choose to stillawipp, those who feel differently of course can choose not too.

Yes User it happens. People lose their temper and depending on the degree of that loss it may or may not be abusive.

You see it as abusive behaviour but in the context of all we've been told, I don't because I respond to the information I've been given which is something you appear to be unwilling or unable to do.

Perhaps his yelling did allow him to have more control over his children while they were smaller and younger but as we don't know that was the case, it shouldn't be assumed that perhaps it was.

I've got to ask, and of course you're under no obligation to answer. Did you or your DH treat your ES the way NRD described? I can only imagine someone would deny obviously abusive behavior as abusive because they, or someone close to them, has behaved similarly.