Estrangement advice

I don't really understand what either of you are talking about about in regards to my comment

Toxic people are toxic, as understood by the law and therapists, it's always better to recognise and avoid people like that... It has nothing to do with "sensitivities" and there is nothing wrong with being sensitive anyway

Smileless2012

Thank you SingcoTime.

Exactly a year before the note on Christmas Eve, I traded from my gift shop for the last time. I closed it down because they'd asked me to provide child care 3 days a week, and I couldn't do both.

Our GS was going to go to a childminder one day a week and our son had already arranged to consolidate his working week into 4 days, so he would spend one day with his son.

She then discovered she'd have to return to work earlier than expected because she'd brought her maternity leave forward due to having a lot of time off during the pregnancy. I was asked to have him for 4 days for a couple of months until the child minder had a vacancy; I agreed.

Then out of the blue I was told they'd decided he wouldn't be coming to me at all, he'd go to the child minder. In consultation with them, we'd purchased everything we needed for me to look after him in our home and ended up returning it all.

Luckily I'd bought everything from a mail order catalogue I'd dealt with for years and they agreed to take everything back and refunded the cost.

We saw very little of them as a family, but our son continued to have regular contact mostly through 'phone calls, all of which were made when he was on his way home from work or walking the dog. That was unusual but we didn't place any importance on it.

We were asked not to just call round, which we weren't doing anyway even though they lived just up the road. He emailed us telling us they needed some space but we weren't to worry because they knew how much we loved our GS and would never stop us from seeing him.

We thought it was an odd thing to say but weren't worried because there was nothing to suggest that there was anything wrong with our relationship with him or her. We naively assumed that things would settle down once they'd adjusted to being new parents and all would be well.

We'd done everything that had been asked of us and had no choice but to accept the changes to the child care arrangements we'd all originally agreed upon.

Of course it was too late for my gift shop. I'd ceased trading, we own the premises and had already found a new tenant. I don't think it ever occurred to them that the only reason I'd closed it was to look after our GS, which in the end I never got to do.

I've just re read this before posting and even I find it all hard to believe. More than 11 years on we still can't get our heads around it, and I don't think we ever will.

Well it certainly would leave me with a lack of closure if they had been communicating about wanting your help and never communicated about where there was friction, which the distancing suggested there was. I can understand not being able to wrap your head around it for sure. Estrangement and the surrounding circumstances are always quite sad.

DiamondLily

I think, if `ACs want anything changed, then they need to state, clearly, what the issues are.

If you do that, and it is rebuffed, then ok. You do what you need to do.

But, to just not explain and than somehow expect people to change, is unrealistic. People aren’t mind readers.. 😗

Sometimes in the worst cases, a clean break will suffice. Sometimes the change needed is complete, immediate separation. Change is not something that comes easy. When people have been getting away with mistreating another person for so long with others standing back and accepting it, they are even less open to change. The person wanting the change (and their scapegoat spouse) become the 'problem'. It happens all the time.

I agree with you only in the instance that a relationship can actually be salvaged. Not all relationships can be salvaged. At some point estrangement is a survival tool. It's the lesser of the evil between maintaining an unhealthy relationship and breaking free for your mental health and wellbeing.

VioletSky

I don't really understand what either of you are talking about about in regards to my comment

Toxic people are toxic, as understood by the law and therapists, it's always better to recognise and avoid people like that... It has nothing to do with "sensitivities" and there is nothing wrong with being sensitive anyway

Agreed!

If anyone AC, parent or spouse wants things within their relationships to change then of course as you say DL, they need to say what those changes are and what the issues they believe to be problematic are too.

If nothing changes and estrangement happens, at least the one being estranged knows why. They can of course deny they were ever told or deny the reality of what they've been told, but at least whether or not they choose to be honest even with themselves they've been told, which is something not every EP is given.

I agree SingcoTime that not every relationship can be salvaged, but not just because at some point estrangement is a survival tool because that isn't always the reason for the estrangement.

VioletSky

I don't really understand what either of you are talking about about in regards to my comment

Toxic people are toxic, as understood by the law and therapists, it's always better to recognise and avoid people like that... It has nothing to do with "sensitivities" and there is nothing wrong with being sensitive anyway

Violet I wasn't saying there is anything wrong with being sensitive. I simply meant that we each have particular areas that are particularly sensitive for us (sometimes described as "buttons that someone can press") Those can certainly be identified by toxic people.

Yes toxic people are toxic. I wasnt intending to suggest otherwise. At the same time I think that knowledge can on occasions be interpreted in relation to a way someone has behaved or something they have done/said; maybe expressed badly or something. Without nuance and looking at circumstances I think that knowledge can be.

When the behaviour etc is continuous its toxic. When it's a mistake/badly put/in the heat if the moment one off the incident it may be toxic but that person is not necessarily toxic per se. Patterns of behaviour identify toxicity not one off examples.

I don't know if I'm explaining myself well. I do know I don't want an argument or to annoy you.

My original post was just to say I am sorry that you went through what you went through. I still am.

.sorry missing bit above .........that knowledge can be misinterpreted/misused to make a judgement on someone's toxicity

Smileless2012

If anyone AC, parent or spouse wants things within their relationships to change then of course as you say DL, they need to say what those changes are and what the issues they believe to be problematic are too.

If nothing changes and estrangement happens, at least the one being estranged knows why. They can of course deny they were ever told or deny the reality of what they've been told, but at least whether or not they choose to be honest even with themselves they've been told, which is something not every EP is given.

I agree SingcoTime that not every relationship can be salvaged, but not just because at some point estrangement is a survival tool because that isn't always the reason for the estrangement.

Well, if no one understands the issues, then of course people will struggle. They cannot mind read.

But, I agree with VS on one thing. Some people are just toxic.

My AC stepchildren certainly were! They were a nightmare of over entitlement and assumptions that everyone would dance to their tune.🙄

Which is why they are out of my life. They know why, because I informed them, so I haven’t left them guessing.

I hope their kids don’t follow their example and treat them the same as they did my DH.😗

But, I agree with VS on one thing. Some people are just toxic

I agree too DL

Madgran77

*But, I agree with VS on one thing. Some people are just toxic*

I agree too DL

Yes, they were dreadful, and made my DH’s last weeks alive unbearable, although I did hide a lot of it from him.☹️

that knowledge can be misinterpreted/misused to make a judgement on someone's toxicity yes Madgran that's what I was referring too when I said about the importance of recognising any limitations.

Knowledge itself isn't necessarily enough because it depends how that knowledge is applied.

Madgran77

.sorry missing bit above .........that knowledge can be misinterpreted/misused to make a judgement on someone's toxicity

No, when people show me who they are, I believe them

No, when people show me who they are, I believe them

Ok. I would agree with that but perhaps we just come to that belief of someone from different angles. Either way we all make our decisions about people as we choose to.

I'm not sure what you mean though

Do you think I walk up to people, exchange pleasantries and the go "whoops! Toxic!" Or do you think that I am talking about someone you get to know over time who has proven an inability for change or personal growth Madgran?

Either way we all make decisions about people as we choose too yes we do. Sometimes we can take an instant dislike to someone, with time sometimes we are shown we were right to do so but we can also be shown that we were wrong.

VioletSky

Madgran77

.sorry missing bit above .........that knowledge can be misinterpreted/misused to make a judgement on someone's toxicity

No, when people show me who they are, I believe them

I agree. My stepkids were dreadful. My DH used to say he was ashamed that they’d turned out that way - but, as I used to say, they were adults, they made their choices.

As they estranged him, their mother, and their MIL, at least it wasn’t personal…lol 🙂

Surely it depends on how well you know someone to determine whether or not they've proved they have an inability for change or personal growth, and whether or not any bias has a bearing on that judgement.

How long you've known someone doesn't necessarily equate to knowing them well enough.

I think some people are easier to read than others. DH used to say I could read him like a book - but I misjudged it a bit with his kids.

I worked on the assumption (as I had with my kids) that if you love and support people, they do the same.

It, obviously, doesn’t always work that way.

Which is a shame, but, whatever floats their boat.

We misjudged our ES's wife DL it happens, and as I posted earlier can happen either way, mistakenly thinking good people are bad or bad people or good.

VioletSky

I'm not sure what you mean though

Do you think I walk up to people, exchange pleasantries and the go "whoops! Toxic!" Or do you think that I am talking about someone you get to know over time who has proven an inability for change or personal growth Madgran?

No I'm not saying that Violet.

This is what I said in my post above: "When the behaviour etc is continuous its toxic. When it's a mistake/badly put/in the heat of the moment one off the incident it may be toxic but that person is not necessarily toxic per se. Patterns of behaviour identify toxicity not one off examples".

I'm not sure how that suggests what you describe as my thinking on your behaviour.

I was trying to explain myself because you said:

"I don't really understand what either of you are talking about about in regards to my comment. Toxic people are toxic, as understood by the law and therapists, it's always better to recognise and avoid people like that... It has nothing to do with "sensitivities" and there is nothing wrong with being sensitive"

When I said perhaps we come from different angles I just meant that we will come to our beliefs from different angles because we have different sensitivities (buttons to press etc)

To be honest I am at a loss as to how my saying that I am sorry that you went through what you did and that I think it is good that you have made the right choice for you seems to have turned into another back and forth trying to explain and then re explain and trying to say that I have no desire to upset or annoy anyone.

So I'm just going to stop.

DiamondLily

I think some people are easier to read than others. DH used to say I could read him like a book - but I misjudged it a bit with his kids.

I worked on the assumption (as I had with my kids) that if you love and support people, they do the same.

It, obviously, doesn’t always work that way.

Which is a shame, but, whatever floats their boat.

I certainly recognise that assumption DL. I think it's one that most people would make!

VioletSky

Madgran77 it's easy to think that but unfortunately it just gave her ammunition to use against me. She shared it with the whole family and what resulted was a family wide assault on me. Even my brother that was estranged for 10 years himself after the appalling way he was treated in childhood... Because he just thinks he was a bad kid now.

Abusive people are very good at what they do. I'll give an example... If we were having a family visit, she would get me alone before hand and literally tear me to shreds. How I looked, how I spoke (I retain my South London accent but she made hers go away), my children, my partner... Then she would tell me my family were ashamed of me and that they had said xyz about me. I'd be a mess and embarrassed to be around these people.

It's easy to convince others what they didn't see didn't happen. It's easy to hide emotional abuse and it's even easier when you sabotage their relationships with the rest of the family.

I regret the time I spent trying to have a better relationship with her... It cost me a suicide attempt, a nervous breakdown half my adult life lost to depression and anxiety

And these people walk around quietly seeking praise and attention and validation for how wonderful they are... And they get it because they are very difficult to spot without the signs

One sign, watch how they treat a victim of abuse, they think they are easy targets to bully and ridicule. Watch how they work to turn others against them by changing the narrative, twisting their words or engineering "misunderstandings" and faux hurt feelings.

Anyway the opposite is true in time and abuse victims have the potential to be powerful and all that nonsense just washes away

It's well known that abusers see previous victims as easier targets... That's why I posted what I did.

And abusers have similar MOs so they make use of all the buttons that were installed by a previous abuser.

This is one way to spot an abusive personality... To keep yourself safe

Really interesting discussion. What SingcoTime wrote earlier has made me think. The labels EP or EAC aren’t important…and that means everyone on here has something in common. We have all been hurt by someone else, in some cases maliciously. Which means there is more that unites us than divides us. We’re actually all on the same side in the hurting stakes.

Spring20

Really interesting discussion. What SingcoTime wrote earlier has made me think. The labels EP or EAC aren’t important…and that means everyone on here has something in common. We have all been hurt by someone else, in some cases maliciously. Which means there is more that unites us than divides us. We’re actually all on the same side in the hurting stakes.

This!

Smileless2012

We misjudged our ES's wife DL it happens, and as I posted earlier can happen either way, mistakenly thinking good people are bad or bad people or good.

Yes, it can. People can hide their true character, which is easier if they’re not part of the “birth family”

I think, with “birth family” we get to know them ove r many years.

I’m lucky with my two in-laws, as I get on well with them, but my stepkids, I got it wrong.

When DH and I got together, I thought a blended family could work. I think I should have probably understood them earlier.

But I didn’t. I didn’t get the jealousy they felt with my kids, and the self entitlement from them etc.

There was no need for any of it, they were all treated the same, with help, but it didn’t work.

Sad.☹️