Domestic Violence from kids to parents

EllanVannin -- "HolyHannah a tiny baby can manipulate let alone one at infant/primary school age, so your " blame the parents " remark doesn't hold water." -- I assume by manipulate you mean: "to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage".

A "tiny baby" cannot possibly "manipulate" by definition. According to accepted child development 'norms':

"Between 18 months to three years of age, toddlers have reached the "sensorimotor" stage of Piaget's theory of cognitive development that involves rudimentary thought. For instance, they understand the permanence of objects and people, visually follow the displacement of objects, and begin to use instruments and tools."

A "tiny baby" doesn't have the ability to think, "Hey! If I cry and scream because I'm wet and hungry I can make that adult do... and that other adult do something else!"

There is nothing going on where I am "blaming parents" for anything. Adults who blame minor children for things out of their control or that the adult has the ability to change where the child does not, is what my issue has been.

Labeling minor children as young as "tiny babies" as "manipulators" is not okay or healthy. When people put motives onto others' it changes how you react to that person. If you think your child is a "manipulator"/liar then you'll treat everything they say as a lie...

How does that build a healthy relationship when a child comes to understand that their parent believes everything they say is a "manipulation"/lie? The child will start lying/telling the parent/adult what they want to hear because, why not? Parent thinks child lies anyway and now the child becomes a liar so the prophecy is fulfilled.

Which came first in that scenario was that the adult/parent put a negative label on the child and then the child grew into that 'role'. So the parent/adult did play a part in the child's behavior in a negative way. The parent then should not blame the child for lying. The parent set up the situation where trying to "lie your way out" is as good a route as any...

Explaining how negative labels cause more harm then good is not "blaming the parent". Explaining that parents/adults have a responsibility to model the behavior we want/expect from our minor children is not "blaming the parent". It's called being accountable for our adult part in a child's development, regardless of what child you are interacting with/biological relationship etc. Adults hold power children do not. How adults use that 'power' is on the adult.

Holding children accountable for their behavior at age/maturity appropriate levels, is good parenting. Putting inappropriate/unrealistic expectations on minor children is not.

we seem to have drifted from the original discussion.
i know of a case where adult children are abusing their parent by controlling her money and now limiting her access to food. as they don't want her wasting her money on too much fruit. they say she eats too much.
she is disabled, though of sound mind, she cannot physically shift for herself. they also resent the money paid to a careworker and berate her for taking too long. the client has multiple complex morbidities.
but, she will never say or support any complaint against the AC. so nothing can be done. it is most frustrating, and concerning. she colludes by inertia.
she will not consciously accept that they are abusing/neglecting her. is it Stockholm syndrome ?

Smileless2012

That's easy to say when you are not the parent in an abusive coercive relationship who has been brain washed into believing that the abuse they receive is their fault.

I know how hard it is for people in abusive relationships to leave, but that does not lessen the harm done to the children of that relationship.

If the parent is not able to leave to protect the children, social services will intervene to prevent any further harm to the children.

That's easy to say when you are not the parent in an abusive coercive relationship who has been brain washed into believing that the abuse they receive is their fault.

I don't understand the question; do you mean 'don't we have any responsibility to prevent our own children from witnessing abuse?'

Social services will remove children from homes where the parent, who is the victim of domestic violence, has refused to leave the other parent, who is the perpetrator.

Witnessing abuse carries the same risk of harm to a child’s mental health and learning as being abused directly.

The children are let down by both parents; the one perpetrating the abuse, and the other for failing to protect the children by keeping them in that environment.

That is a very sad story but we don't have any responsibility to prevent our own children from witnessing abuse?

Fault and responsibility are two different things.

The abuse done to me was not my fault but undoing the harm is my responsibility.

A tragic example of how the cycle of abuse can carry on down through generations Susiewong.

It is wrong, as has been posted to stigmatise abusers that they may become abusive. It is also wrong to stigmatise parents that it is because of way a child was raised that has resulted in them becoming abusers. There are other factors outside of the family that can be just as influential.

As I posted earlier, the parent being physically abused by their child is not necessarily the one who the child witnessed being abusive or the one who abused the child.

More likely that the abused parent is like the poor woman Susiewong has posted about; abused by her husband and then abused by her son.

Gosh this reminds me of our neighbours when we moved in 25 years ago.
The son was 10 and the apple of his fathers eye. He was spoilt, indulged and could do no wrong as far as his father was concerned, he had a younger sister who was regarded very differently This boy had no friends as he was led to believe he was so much W better than everyone else.
His mother was very pleasant but the father was controlling and verbally abusive.
Fast forward 5 years and the 15 year old boy is now also verbally abusive to his mother, copying his fathers own behaviour.
This father created a monster who he could not control, the mother had no control and the family started to fall apart. Fast forward 10 years.
The father became depressed and reliant on alcohol, lost his job and became increasingly verbally abusive to his wife, son and younger daughter. The younger daughter moved out when she reached 18.
The father died of a heart attack a few years ago and I really hoped his poor wife would finally live the lovely life she so deserved but alas her son continued where his father had left off until he finally left home. Unfortunately she died earlier this year.
At the age of 35 the son cannot hold down a job for very long because of his temper, he is known to the police through his driving convictions and appears to be a carbon copy of his own father. He is also a father himself now.
Such a sad story, cycles can be hard to break.

HolyHannah

www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/targeted-parenting/202010/the-3-letter-words-child-psychologists-love

I think this high-lights what was discussed about calling a child "nasty and naughty" and calling their behavior that...

HolyHannah - what an amazing article.

As a perfectionist, Ish really resonated with me and I am definitely going to put this to use with my children.

Starblaze - I also hit that low point. When I realised that I was the problem. That my behaviour was not only causing pain to others, but also to me.

It was a difficult truth to face and it was difficult to work through.

I liken it to Step 4 of AA - making a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

I’ll always be so, so grateful that I had the opportunity to address it before I had my children.

is to not equate a person's bad behavior to being a bad person

I agree Holy Hannah

I had bad learned behaviour too MrsWarren

I also learnt I didn't want to cause pain.

My mum told me a lot about how to manipulate people, how to make them uncomfortable, not just learnt by witnessing, deliberately taught in moments where my mum had "won" a victory against someone else. She was boasting.

Younger me did not know or understand that that was the best way to not ha e any healthy relationships until I hit a low point in life and realised I needed to change me, not others

As a child of a mother with BPD, I definitely had some “learned behaviour” issues that I had to unlearn as an adult in order to maintain healthy relationships. It was not easy.

For a long time, I thought I had BPD, but with the help of a therapist, I came to realise that, in the absence of any of the main symptoms of BPD, I had “fleas”.

outofthefog.website/what-not-to-do-1/2015/12/3/fleas

Both of us did indeed grow up in an abusive household though.

Iam64 -- The whole point of what I was highlighting from the article is to not equate a person's bad behavior to being a bad person.

I have never said anyone is being abusive. I have said/tried to convey the importance of parents/adults demonstrating positive behavior when faced with a child who is acting out. I even posted an article demonstrating the principles I am talking about...

Thank you MrsWarren

Perhaps as learned behaviour it would make sense for those who witness abuse to become abusive, like my brother who witnessed his parents abuse me while being treated very differently himself. Who is now a carbon copy.

Starblaze, here it is:

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/peoplewhowereabusedaschildrenaremorelikelytobeabusedasanadult/2017-09-27

Starblaze

I agree it is important to not to stigmatise abuse victims that they may become abusers themselves. I'm also a sexual abuse survivor and I remember being a young mum upset by that rhetoric which was thrown at me by.... My mum... Of course.

Some statistics aren't known because as an emotional abuser for example, no one really admits to it often enough to know if they became emotionally abusive due to their own childhood. So I can't say, I can only notice patterns.

We do know a lot about people being abused in childhood going on to be abused by future partners, I think it's 36%? (I'd have to look it up) which is a scary amount so I would guess those who have healthy relationships and those who become abusers themselves are somewhere in there.

Also we know that childhood abuse or neglect makes people susceptible to addiction. It is hard to be an addict and not somehow abuse or at least neglect children.

Patterns everywhere

I think it is 36% for individuals who experienced one type of abuse in childhood. It is around 80% for individuals who experienced four types of abuse in childhood.

If we shout and criticise at people, even adults never mind children, we are unlikely to be able to influence them positively. We may cause that person to withdraw, to be determined never to put their head above the parapet gain, for fear they'll be hurt, criticised, found to be an awful gran, human being etc

I agree Iam64 ...I think that applies across all conversations not just this one and, just to be clear, my agreement with you is general not related to any individual poster on this thread.

I agree it is important to not to stigmatise abuse victims that they may become abusers themselves. I'm also a sexual abuse survivor and I remember being a young mum upset by that rhetoric which was thrown at me by.... My mum... Of course.

Some statistics aren't known because as an emotional abuser for example, no one really admits to it often enough to know if they became emotionally abusive due to their own childhood. So I can't say, I can only notice patterns.

We do know a lot about people being abused in childhood going on to be abused by future partners, I think it's 36%? (I'd have to look it up) which is a scary amount so I would guess those who have healthy relationships and those who become abusers themselves are somewhere in there.

Also we know that childhood abuse or neglect makes people susceptible to addiction. It is hard to be an addict and not somehow abuse or at least neglect children.

Patterns everywhere

Iam64 I have done my best at all times to communicate logically and kindly. If you feel I haven't, please show me and I will address it.

Smileless -sorry I cross posted with you and have only just read your post at 20.31. Yes, you're right to point out that not all abusers were abused. Also that many many people who were abused, do not go on to become abusers.

Starblaze -- When both parties have done wrong in a situation the apologies should go both ways regardless of ages/relationship status. Asking children to apologize for their mistakes is good parenting. Adults never apologizing for mistakes toward the child (and we all make them) sets up an unhealthy dynamic.

HolyHannah, can I ask what makes you feel the need to spell out to me that "it's on the adults to deal with where they reacted badly and work to improve/grow". What makes you think I need to be told that "its the adults job to help the minor child grow".

Starblaze, yes, the poster said her granddaughter had apologised. It's good that happened. Yes, a discussion between child and grandmother could have been very helpful in developing understanding and listening, in strengthening their relationship.
I still remain of the view that I hope that grandmother hasn't felt that she was being overly criticised for the way she expressed herself to her granddaughter. If we shout and criticise at people, even adults never mind children, we are unlikely to be able to influence them positively. We may cause that person to withdraw, to be determined never to put their head above the parapet gain, for fear they'll be hurt, criticised, found to be an awful gran, human being etc. Polarised rows sometimes happen but they're not often positive.