Overcomplicated

rosecarmel -- I mentioned the BLM movement earlier and that wasn't well received but I agree there is a parallel...

Sometimes, when your racial group/who You identify as etc. is being ignored in a conversation it is easy to forget empathy...

The healthy mentality should be, "I have/had it "rough" but I need to remember I'm not the only one to have a 'bad time' and sometimes another persons 'bad time' IS factually worse then MY 'bad time' so maybe I should just listen..."

It's the "apple and orange"/Flat/Round Earth comparison... Yes, being abused by a Narcissist (diagnosed "officially" or not) is terrible. Fact. Being abused by a Narcissistic 'parent'? NOT the same as adult to adult abuse and never will be in my eyes.

"No, I’m not very good at pretending flaws don’t exist. It’s a flaw Of mine."

It's a 'flaw' of mine as well. LOL

And because EVERY "flaw" of mine (real or perceived) was not only 'pointed out' but highlighted -- I got very good at overlooking/excusing minor flaws in other people... It's called enabling... The "flaws" I saw in my 'mom' and 'family' were far worse then My alleged 'crimes'... I was just too C-PTSD'd/Stockholm syndromed to understand/grasp until I got help...

HolyHannah

rosecarmel -- I mentioned the BLM movement earlier and that wasn't well received but I agree there is a parallel...

Sometimes, when your racial group/who You identify as etc. is being ignored in a conversation it is easy to forget empathy...

The healthy mentality should be, "I have/had it "rough" but I need to remember I'm not the only one to have a 'bad time' and sometimes another persons 'bad time' IS factually worse then MY 'bad time' so maybe I should just listen..."

It's the "apple and orange"/Flat/Round Earth comparison... Yes, being abused by a Narcissist (diagnosed "officially" or not) is terrible. Fact. Being abused by a Narcissistic 'parent'? NOT the same as adult to adult abuse and never will be in my eyes.

Determining "worse" as a layperson is subjective- Closer to labeling and dependent on preference- No matter how much research is done, it isn't the same as making an assessment as a professional-

Barring that, a person might need to have a clear picture of who they were, who they are and what they aspire to become- Some prefer not to go further or change-

Does "worse" help or hurt, does it dismiss the suffering of another?

Children and adults are obviously different- If a person doesn't seek help, their childhood tragedies and patterns carry over into adulthood- What's "worse" then?

Perhaps a calm approach can provide the insight to determine the circumstantial differences but offer equal compassion to both?

I'm not presenting an argument, but an inquiry-

*They'll deny anything that makes them look bad and project everything back*; absolutely even when they're in the middle of that bad behaviour!!

The day our ES's wife came down to our house, ranting and raving at me like a mad woman. All of a sudden she stopped and said "you've done this to me, you've made me like this".

Can't get a better example of denial and projection than that.

rosecarmel I don't think there is ever really worse, just different and facing different challenges and outcomes that people need to try to understand in order to show real empathy.

I can understand that estranging my mum may have caused her some pain. I can even understand that trying to show her her flaws caused her some pain.

She will not understand my pain because doing so removes her outlet for hers. She also does not want to deal with where her pain originally comes from because she will have to fully face the fact that her coping mechanisms were distructive to her own child.

Also she can't make things right with me without blowing up her whole world with the truth of her behaviour.

That's how she got stuck in the cycle and that's why I refused to stay part of it.

I can see the whole cycle, she can only see the bits that hurt her and her need to create an emotional punchbag to cope.

I can see the whole cycle, she can only see the bits that hurt her and her need to create an emotional punchbag to cope.

That sounds almost identical to the situation that Smileless has with her DIL doesn't it? Blaming someone else for their own inadequacies because that's easier than looking at themselves. Same problem: different ends of the spectrum.

Chewbacca -- It depends on if the person is a victim of abuse. Victims sometimes lash out... It just depends on who the aggressor is...

Personally, I am not inclined to believe that someone who says that disagreeing with them is "like waving a red rag in front of a bull", is less likely the aggressor then the person they are accusing of being a Narcissist...

Blaming victims for their reaction to abuse is as low as it gets...

Chewbacca

^I can see the whole cycle, she can only see the bits that hurt her and her need to create an^ emotional punchbag to cope.

That sounds almost identical to the situation that Smileless has with her DIL doesn't it? Blaming someone else for their own inadequacies because that's easier than looking at themselves. Same problem: different ends of the spectrum.

Having being given generous backstory, I'd consider it could be 2 in the same, each one blaming the other, neither assuming any accountability, and possibly a pattern the son / husband cycles through?

That of course, means that people are free to assume the same about others, doesn't it?

So we are back to the same old cycle. Anything anyone says is probably not true.

Lots of invalidation.

MissAdventure

That of course, means that people are free to assume the same about others, doesn't it?

So we are back to the same old cycle. Anything anyone says is probably not true.

Lots of invalidation.

It isn't an assumption- Its a similarity: Nothing- Each one blaming the other-

HolyHannah Why do you feel that you have the right to demand validation for every one of your experiences and yet when it's pointed out that, actually, your experiences and some one else's, at the other end of the spectrum have many similarities, you call it as low as it gets. You invalidated my post. So why should anyone believe or validate anything you say?

That's the problem with taking a few words from a much longer post out of context "like waving a red flag in front of a bull" is deliberately missing out the fact that the poster made the bull reference on account of being the star sign Taurus.

You're right Chewbacca it is almost exactly the same as our situation with our ES's wife.

Blaming victims for their reaction is as low as it gets... but that's just been done hasn't it, with yet another out of context re posting of an old post from a EP!!!

I think it's all to do with the apparent one rule for EAC and another for EP's Chewbacca.

Perhaps some need to invalidate others to ensure their own validation. It's rather sad really to think that anyone should need too.

A red rag to a bull is something, perhaps a comment or criticism, intended to deliberately provoke someone else into reacting negatively.

That's certainly what our ES's wife intended to happen that day but thankfully I managed to retain my composure and responded with "no .... you've always been like this".

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Smileless2012

A red rag to a bull is something, perhaps a comment or criticism, intended to deliberately provoke someone else into reacting negatively.

That's certainly what our ES's wife intended to happen that day but thankfully I managed to retain my composure and responded with "no .... you've always been like this".

The situation invited an opportunity to engage her, to calmly inquire how she came to that conclusion instead of claiming she'd always been that way -- when in reality she was conditioned to be that way-

She cannot shoulder the responsibility of how she came to be and shoulder the responsibility to begin to understand, with help, what damage has been done to her too-

It's circumstances like these that both parties can assume responsibility for the way in which they handled the situation instead of resorting to blame-

Have you ever tried to calmly engage someone who pushes their way into your home uninvited, is screaming and yelling at you and jabbing their finger just inches from your face rosecarmel?

I managed to stay calm and under the circumstances did well to manage that. It certainly wasn't an opportunity to engage with her and yes, in reality she may well have been conditioned to be the way she is but she wasn't conditioned to be that way by me.

Any actual references to where you've read these posts Starblaze?

I'm sure the same can be said about estranged children, too.

Indeed MissA I do wonder why there's this constant need to prove how vile EP's can be from EAC. There's a danger I think of invalidating their own experiences by this apparent obsession to invalidate not just EP's experiences but the EP's themselves.

Starblaze

rosecarmel I don't think there is ever really worse, just different and facing different challenges and outcomes that people need to try to understand in order to show real empathy.

I can understand that estranging my mum may have caused her some pain. I can even understand that trying to show her her flaws caused her some pain.

She will not understand my pain because doing so removes her outlet for hers. She also does not want to deal with where her pain originally comes from because she will have to fully face the fact that her coping mechanisms were distructive to her own child.

Also she can't make things right with me without blowing up her whole world with the truth of her behaviour.

That's how she got stuck in the cycle and that's why I refused to stay part of it.

I can see the whole cycle, she can only see the bits that hurt her and her need to create an emotional punchbag to cope.

The punching bag, yes-

Her: "You were difficult .."

Me: Doh!/Duh!

Without discussing it with me, she assumed responsibility, osmosis style, by no longer referring to me as difficult-

I'm certain she worked some things out privately but somehow couldn't find the words to tell me-

Starblaze, the examples you give are staggering, they are cruel, abusive posts that obviously have been posted by people with mental issues. Why are you citing things like that? They are very extreme and certainly not representative of the genuine posters attempting to respond. I feel Smileless once again has come in for a lot of flack by responding in a considered manner. Once again these threads follow a common pattern and are best avoided.

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You're absolutely right there Sparkling; the flack that Smileless endures is bullying.

Smileless2012

Have you ever tried to calmly engage someone who pushes their way into your home uninvited, is screaming and yelling at you and jabbing their finger just inches from your face rosecarmel?

I managed to stay calm and under the circumstances did well to manage that. It certainly wasn't an opportunity to engage with her and yes, in reality she may well have been conditioned to be the way she is but she wasn't conditioned to be that way by me.

Any actual references to where you've read these posts Starblaze?

Yes, as recently as last year- A similar situation- Someone got abusive, I stepped in to de-escalate- Not my child either- And yet, I do hold myself accountable-

We bring these exquisite creatures into the world, not knowing in advance how we'll fail them- No parent can equip their kid for every worldly circumstance- Therefore, to have children is to assume lifelong responsibility and learn by it-

Smileless2012

Have you ever tried to calmly engage someone who pushes their way into your home uninvited, is screaming and yelling at you and jabbing their finger just inches from your face rosecarmel?

I managed to stay calm and under the circumstances did well to manage that. It certainly wasn't an opportunity to engage with her and yes, in reality she may well have been conditioned to be the way she is but she wasn't conditioned to be that way by me.

Any actual references to where you've read these posts Starblaze?

I forgot to add that I agree, you didn't raise her but did who she chose to marry- If he didn't exist, she might well have married someone else-