Hope For Estranged Grandparents

Ironflower Mon 22-Jun-20 01:50:20 that sounds awful but I don't recognise that in any of the GPs I know. I simply haven't come across it. In my case my DiL comes from a different country with different ideas. When I was holding the baby in a different way to the way she did, she simply told me what she does and so I did that. Now they are a bit older we talk about all sorts of things and how they are different to in my day. Sometimes she asks my opinion and I give it. It is all very easy.

I cannot imagine any GP expecting things to be done they way they did it, so much has changed and so much more info is available. I find it all very interesting but a little bit worrying that they get too much scary stuff as well.

Pretty sure that if my DiL were in labour and DS was working away she would ask me to be with her.

Ironflower Mon 22-Jun-20 01:52:55 what alternative would you suggest?

HH you made me laugh. Higher authority was GNHQ! What did you think it was?

rosecarmel Mon 22-Jun-20 05:19:01 not how it works in UK

Going to last page now, at last!

Please don't think we are all like that.

MoD "I don’t understand why this is so shocking to hear. Parents are the decision makers when it comes to their minor children, even the unreasonable ones. Has it ever been any different?" Different now, unreasonable parents cannot stop their children from seeing loving GPs who have played a part in their lives. Read the OP.

On to semantics now "No Smileless, you’ve got that wrong. The court will not rule that denying contact with the grandparents is an unreasonable act because that is not what is in question." No the court won't rules on it, they will act on it which amounts to the same thing. They won't apply blame, they will determine the outcome.

HH please do not paraphrase what I said to make it appear different. It diminishes your argument when you are seen to do this.

Starblaze Sun 21-Jun-20 19:08:58I could counter that with “Pesky GCs parents! Should do as I say! Not as I do!“ All these things can be turned the other way but the OP has told us of a case where the GPs were given an order allowing them to see a grandchild. That must mean the court had a good reason for doing so. Ergo the parent was not being 'reasonable'

Next page

So far on this thread there are no estranged children who are at risk of being taken to court. There has either been too much time passed or the grandparents were never given the chance to establish any kind of relationship with the children. So I don't think it is fair to say that is influencing us, it's a non issue for us.

That's why the focus has been more on:

1 The courts inability to spot an abuser because no one spotted our abusers among all the people and organisations involved in our lives as children.

2: The financial hardship, stress and worry of parents who no matter how hard they try to not let it impact their children are often unable to avoid it. Even if that is just hours and hours of filling out paperwork, liaising with solicitors, liaising with cafcass and other organisations and physically going to court. Which takes time and energy away from the children. Then if the grandparents win, forced, scheduled contact and the impact that has on the children's lives.

Starblaze Sun 21-Jun-20 14:33:43 in what way? Throw out such comments with examples please.

Not sure I can tell you much more without identifying people. I have made no conflicting statements but perhaps some didn't understand so here you are: A person had a court order, they broke it, 101 was called and the police came out. They supported the person with the court order and spoke to the person who broke it. That was done outside the hearing of the other party so don't know what was said. When the police returned they had convinced the one who broke the order to comply. These are facts, no embelishment, no opinion just bare facts. Make of it what you like it is true. I have no reason to lie and the implication I did so is based upon the thinking of the people who do not believe me. I often think such opinions come from people thinking what they would do rather than what they have actually read.

I could have asked GN to remove the posts inferring I am a liar but I didn't because those posts say more about the people who wrote them than about me.

HolyHannah Sun 21-Jun-20 14:50:22 I don't think about 'you' at all! It is of no interest to me what an individual does, this thread is about all situations. However, it is a bit worrying when someone only thinks about themselves and not the bigger picture which is what this is about. Why would I be interested in what you would do going forward? I have shown sympathy to your situation and that is all..

Madgran77 Sun 21-Jun-20 15:01:20 once again you have made my point far more succinctly that I could

Motherofdragons Sun 21-Jun-20 15:37:40 so sorry you didn't understand that 'reasonable' was a simple way of not listing all the details you have just said. If the parents had been 'reasonable' the court would not have made the Order. Simple really, no need to make it complicated.

Now on to the next page

I don't know about you Ironflower but if I'm watching a film about a murderer, and he's in someones house, and the owner of the house is about to go in, I'm saying 'No, don't go in; don't do it' to the tv.

When I read examples like the ones you've given, I want to say to those GP's 'no stop' and 'stop now before you end up seeing very little of your GC or nothing at all'.

Ironflower I think that is a very important point.

I think estranged grandparents are in a large part of the view that most cut off parents/grandparents are undeserving of it. I think perhaps it's important for them to see it that way for their own peace of mind.

However the more I read people's stories, the more apparent it becomes that there are huge amounts of abusive parents/grandparents out there and that is without even getting into the panes who just think they know best.

It seems to me that the collateral damage would be extremely high. Even without the fact that children are harmed by these sorts of court cases anyway.

I think perhaps there will be an argument that we are the biased ones on this one. Yes though, you only have to go to any mother support group to read thousands of issues or any forum like raised by narcissists or insane parents on Reddit to see that times have changed and a lot of old ways are, dangerous and disastrous and abusive without even getting started on people who are deliberately abusive.

I used think it was 50/50 until I started actually talking to estranged parents.

Madgran -- Thank you for the flowers.

No one should ever have to 'come to understand' they were abused as a child.

The worst time I can think of to make that 'discovery' is when you see what you didn't understand then replay itself again, only this time You see "it" with adult eyes...

HolyHannah

Madgran -- I wish for all parties involved that you didn't have to agree with Me... That's how the truth is for Me as a survivor.

Often AC do not understand they were abused until after they have children

I agree with you *Holy Hannah

rosecarmel -- "Petitioning the court for the sole purpose of documenting a written expressed interest, I can understand, providing it doesn't involve anyone other than the petitioner to appear in court and a letter of expressed interest sent to the parent"

I could totally accept that. I understand situations where that may very well have a positive benefit. I would add to that though, that there should be 'no strings attached'/"legal obligation" on the parents of the minor children, if they DO positively respond to such a request. In other words, they can end contact NQA with no ramifications.

I believe there might be less No Contact situations IF parents KNEW that if they have a 'change of heart' that they can 'walk away' and not face a penalty (like never ending contact with GP's that act questionably) but unfortunately with the rise in "GP 'rights' movements" more GP's are not getting what they want, a relationship with their grand-children because abusers are abusing the legal system to get what THEY want.

Non-abusive/"good" GP's that are unjustly cut-off should be denouncing 'GP rights' by saying, "I know I have been cut off unjustly. When bad/abusive GP's try to manipulate the law to bully their AC it gives my child 'one more reason' to continue to NOT contact ME. Even though I don't deserve this treatment, many EGP's do. And while I do not like my child's choice to not include me in their life and the life of their children I will respect it because to do otherwise creates more issues then it fixes."

Petitioning the court for the sole purpose of documenting a written expressed interest, I can understand, providing it doesn't involve anyone other than the petitioner to appear in court and a letter of expressed interest sent to the parent-

That way if the parent/s wishes to make contact, they've all the information they need to do so in the event of a medical emergency, incarceration, death/s or to provide social services with contact information should a child/ren enter into foster care-

During both the crack epidemic and the opioid epidemic there were considerable spikes in the amount of grandparents raising their children's children-

There are so many family hardships that lead to estrangement and occasionally reunions-

"Is there any need for you take yourself to court HolyHannah so a court can decide whether or not you've been unreasonable? Are you not confident in the decisions you have taken, and your reasons for taking them so need a court's approval?"

From some of the replies, it felt to me that some think I should have my choices examined by a 'higher authority'...

"Perhaps if all adults, when it comes to considering the established relationship between children and their GP's, behaved like adults, the courts wouldn't be called on to intervene."

Often AC do not understand they were abused until after they have children and they see the patterns of behavior repeating with their children and the grand-parents and then end contact.

Should those parents have their autonomy eroded because they allowed a relationship to form or should they be able to decide the relationship is no longer "in the best interests of the children" and move on without having to justify their position/go 'to court'?

Most EGP's here would agree that IF contact has been initiated then there is no 'justifiable reason' to end contact and if they do, then court should be an option. I know my family would love for the law to include GP's that haven't even met the grand-children...

There are thousands of reasons why a child may have allowed contact with GP's and then ended contact. Most of those should be considered the parents decision and court-action should rarely/if ever be allowed when a married couple decide on No Contact even IF a previous relationship existed. That is the best way to protect minor children from potential abusers and the chaos that a 'court case' could create.

Unless of course, GP's assume most/all No Contact adults are abusing their children and if that's the mentality, is that projection or just more of "the older generation knows what's 'better' for the minor children then their own parents do", drivel...

I agree with IronFlower that it is boundary stomping that gets in the way of most relationships. GPs are not the parents but some seem to think that they have a right to do whatever they want with the children, see them as much as they like (never mind what the AC likes) and, when they don't get their way, the AC are accused of keeping GC away or being difficult. Or the D/DIL/S/SIL is seen as controlling, usually the one that isn't the genetic relation. Wouldn't you distance yourself from someone like that? It's exhausting.

Many GPs have a picture in their head of what it will be like to be a GP. When that doesn't fit with the lifestyle of the AC, all hell breaks loose. AC don't need to meet the expectations of the GP. They don't need to provide the same GP experience that those GP provided for their parents.

Obviously it's not all GP, but I think it happens a lot and makes up the bulk of reasons AC see GPs less than they otherwise would.

I've seen the money thing, but not because not enough was given- Money can work its influence in relationships the same way it works its influence in the world-

Also back to abuse, courts aren't perfect, we know that. They either allow unproven accusations (good grandparents may lose out) or they don't (kids sent to abusers).

Some children will be sent to abusive grandparents. It kind of feels like in this thread well that's the courts fault or that they are collateral damage.

Let’s not talk about the abusive situations then. Just some normal situations that can lead to estrangement.
Having a newborn, I’m in a lot of pregnancy groups. One thing that continually keeps coming up is boundary stomping grandparents. Grandparents throwing tantrums when they aren’t allowed in the delivery room. Grandparents just not listening or respecting the AC. Couples spend their pregnancy researching and learning about the ways they want to parent. Along comes grandparent saying no that’s wrong, I’ve raised 4 children do it this way.
There are so many stories in my group of parents asking desperately for advice because grandparents won’t listen. They leave baby with grandparent and grandparent refuse to do as they ask. Examples including putting cereal in baby’s bottle, not laying baby on their back for sleep, giving icecream to a 2 month old, taking baby in a car not in a carseat, taking newborn out to a restaurant and letting everyone hold the baby during the middle of covid and not even letting the mother know. This daughter messaged the mother and asked to just let her know if she plans on taking the baby out, she wants to know where her baby is. The mother’s response was “stop being demanding, I don’t need your permission.” The lady linked the messages. The aggression and sarcasm from the grandparent was horrible. The result of that was she was looking for alternate care and wasn’t going to leave baby with her mother anymore.
These aren’t cases of abuse, just boundary stomping grandparents. These grandparents refuse to listen to the parents, then use the courts to once again impose their will. I’m sure that many estrangements started this way. This is soo common. This is a normal pregnancy group (worldwide not country specific) and there are countless stories. If the grandparents had of just respected the parents, it wouldn’t have happened.
It would be so hard to be forced to leave your children with grandparents that you know don’t care about your values or your ideas on parenting (when/how to start solids with baby, how to get baby to sleep, how baby travels in a car). The thought of a grandparent smacking my kids or leaving baby to scream herself to sleep makes me angry. Honestly I think that good grandparents that get cut off because they don’t give enough money or enough childcare are in the minority.

You're welcome; thanks for yours.

Thanks for the laugh guys

Absolutely no disappointment here

Not in the slightest!

Lol

Oh, but you haven't disappointed.
Not at all.

Weird. I always explain myself. I have now decided I don't need to any more.

Sorry to disappoint