Narcissistic adult children

Craftyone, don't feel sad for me at all. I am a thoroughly happy person with a delightful life filled with bumps and hiccups like anyone else. But it's filled with love and laughter.

I was happy to read your post. That is wonderful! I think yours is a great example of what can happen when people have respectful relationships with each other and manage their own expectation. Bravo to you!

That sounds very sad for you goodmama. I am lucky in that my AD still says that she loves me and wants to come and stay for a night or two. She is verbally and physically kind to me, when I see or speak to her. I have lowered my expectations because of her situation and am now happy because I accept and understand that she is wired differently. I don`t fight against it, I don`t stand my ground, I just go with the flow

GoodMama - such wise words and I sincerely hope that others will read them and take heed.

All we can do is focus on living our own lives. We only go around once!

It's difficult to see ourselves truthfully sometimes, that goes to Adult Children and their Parents.

Especially when we believe we have the most honest and noble intentions. But not listening to someone else when they (weakly or strongly) state boundaries that interfere with our wants is all too often the beginning of the end of the relationship.

I believe it's rare for someone to want to hurt others for no other reason than getting joy out of it. I believe all too often our feelings get hurt because someone does not want what we want.

Adult Children who try to insert themselves into their Parent's assisted living care planning. They are thinking, "I want to make sure my parents are well taken care of if they need it". While their parents wish they would mind their own business. Or Adult Children who have expectations of free and always available child care might think "my parents love my kids, surely they would enjoy spending more time with them! And it's free!" While, all too often, that puts the parents in a difficult spot and they feel taken advantage of.

Just like Adult Children who want to work out their own maternal or paternal leave plans without their parents well meaning but irrelevant advice. Or Adult Children who don't want every interaction with their parents to be about how they should be raising their children. Even when their parents are telling them these things so the "don't repeat my mistakes". It's still intrusive, inventive advice, no matter the intent of their parents.

And we all get fatigued by the repeated offenses we make against each other. Our fuses get short and eventually one side decides the relationship needs a break to reset.

And sometimes it stays on "a break".

We see plenty on this board and others that sometimes it's the Adult Children and sometimes it's their parents that initiate the break. But they feel tremendous relief when they do.

But I do see how it's easy for all of us to label the other a "narcissist". It lets us put all the blame on the other person and leave ourselves as the victim, with no accountability for the situation we find ourselves in.

At the end of the day, who wants to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't want to be in a relationship with them? When these "breaks" turn into "cut-off" its best to move on. Find happy and healthy joy in our lives with people who want to be around us.

It's certainly not easy, but when two stubborn sides collide, it's best.

Debcz, I don`t think that all hope is removed but perhaps we should be content with less ie less difficult, less estrangement. We will never get perfection as in the hugging perfect AC but there are worse things. I am content in seeing just a layer or two come off and am adapting to an imperfect relationship but a relationship of some sort nevertheless. I feel very blessed in having had 3 children and just one with this problem

Next step, in tiny steps, will be to build her self-esteem. I have always done that but perhaps not gushing enough. eg her 11 year old dd won 2 important dressage comps and I went gushy in my e mail, what a good trainer she is etc (AD trained her dd)

I know I will have progressed if she ever gives me her telephone numbers, I believe it will happen one day

Craftyone, your comment about your D difficult birth just rang a bell in my head. Our D also had a difficult birth, suffering oxygen starvation which caused he deafness. Maybe it affects the brains wiring in some way?
Learning about narcissism is kind of a double edged sword. It helps in that it provides an explanation for things that don’t ordinarily make sense. But hope is removed as things will never change

I am wondering now if my daughter in law has this trait as she has two children from a previous marriage who didn't see there their paternal grandparents, i did think it was strange but was told the grandparents were not interested. I am now wondering if she did the same to her first husband and his parents as she has done to us and our son.

I disagree nonnie, with the last statement, there must be degrees of narcissism as there is a spectrum for autism. My AD will never see a doctor about her MH, it has been broached with her, I said I would fund it if she had to go privately. No way does she believe she is perfect, she knows that there is something wrong, she told me that. She says that she has developed some coping mechanisms such as concentrating on her foot when she wants to shout and forming a bubble around herself.

I have had to teach her about zipping it when her dh says something that makes her feel cornered. I have had to teach her that she is the reason why he comes home late from work every day and inch by inch she is making some progress, at least to keep some harmony at home. I told her that if she disagrees with something, not to shout but to keep it tight inside and to say the words in her head. Last I spoke to her dh, I asked if he was happy and he said yes. Prior to that he was on the verge of tears. I think some sort of harmonious behaviour can be established but also like I said, there are degrees

Smileless2012 Fri 21-Jun-19 18:41:07 I think that sums it up quite well.

It is easy to say someone is a narcissist but if it is only affecting a small number of people it could be the wrong description. However if the person has treated other close family members in the same way I think it is probably the correct description.

The video made it clear that you cannot change such a person or make them see that they could do things differently and that it is up to us to learn how to cope.

I think it is difficult to work out whether this trait is growing because it can only be anecdotal, the narcissist is never going to see a doctor about it because they believe they are perfect.

It is looking positive carftyone

my `right thing to do` approach has worked. AD has been in touch via e mail this morning, ok her dd has won some high class competion with an old pony and taught by AD, so yes I see the contact was about AD self esteem but she wants them both to come and stay the night. No phone numbers yet. I am making progress but tbh keeping all my responses short, nice and to the point, not chatty like I normally am. I kind of feel that some AD layers are being peeled back, maybe we will get back to the point before her dad passed, it will still be difficult but better than nothing at all

I will not be mentioning anything to my other 2 AC. They have been hurt enough and have been able to move on. I don`t want them to start worrying about me. I know I will cope now and as long as I get contact with her her dd, my dgd, who is now 11. She will soon be of an age when she can contact me

Yes, you are making sense Namsanny.

The video was both interesting and informative but to a certain extent irrelevant to me because our relationship with our son, due to his narcissistic wife and his inability or unwillingness to stand up to her, has been over for more than 6 years.

You cannot reason or negotiate with a narcissist. You either agree with them completely or they get rid of you. I thought I was having normal and reasonable discussions with our ES's wife for eg. on maternal and paternal leave. But if you have a different point of view, it's taken as a personal slight. It's not their opinion you don't agree with, it's them you don't like.

IMO there is no solution, you either play their sick manipulative game or you walk away.

We walked away and I thank God that we did.

Good mama.....I so wish your explaination of this situation was somewhere near the truth.
Then some of us would stand a chance of understanding and changing things to make the relationship work.
That’s the problem....most people DONT have the experience of it to offer decent advice!
I would argue that most gparents don’t go out of their way to insist gc are brought up the way they want them to be.
I can of course only speak for myself, but all I wanted to do was help my acs NOT to make the same mistakes I did.
As smileless said it’s thhe controlling aspect of the personality that encourages people to label someone with a narcissistic personality. That and the deviousness to cause trouble in any way for their own amusement!
I do accept that we cannot know that someone has a personality problem for sure unless they are diagnosed properly, but as true narcs think they are totally ok that’s not likely to happen.
No what is the case is the label is used too easily, but I can understand why, as there are more and more people who seem to be on the scale which includes some of the traits which go towards making a ‘narcissist’.

I for one would prefer to find my ac was having difficulty with me and only me (and not a narcissist) as that would point to a possible solution.

When the scales haD fallen and I began to see all the horrid clarity of the problem between us, i realised that either my ac or their partner must have some narc tendencies to be progressing in such a controlling way.
Not looking for a solution, just totally focused on winning some ugly game.

Sorry I hope I’m making sense!

The person i posted about on the other thread had a quite abusive emotionally upbringing, abandonment by his natural mother, then adopted ,and then abandoned by his adoptive mother and left with a cruel adopted father, which seems to be a common thing with narcissists, abandonment, and they somehow are abusive emotionally to all women, as if it is ingrained that women are not to be trusted
Also there is the sudden ignoring you, then appearing again,as if all is fine,leaving you wondering what you have done to upset them,
It does mess with your mind,
The abuse is more emotional than physical i think in most cases
A good website to look at is QUORA,it all becomes clear,
I don't think i have explained properly,without going into detail about my personal experience,
it is complicated, but is all about them, i think too, they have no boundaries, and are risk takers,can also be mean,as their wants come first;

That is a worry isn't it craftyone. How will they feel when we're no longer here and it's too late to try and make amends?

It does make sense that your ED feels guilty because of the way she treated her father and now that he's died, it's too late. Perhaps it depends on the degree of their narcissism. If it's so bad that they have no empathy whatsoever, maybe there would be no guilt.

We sometimes wonder about our ES's reaction when we've gone. He's not a narcissist but his wife certainly is and has been exhibiting the traits it turns out, since childhood.

Will her control and manipulation have been sufficient to mean that he has no feelings of guilt? It would be better for him if that is the case but we'll never know.

smileless, oh that made me suddenly see the Meghan situation, what you said

re my own AD as expected no follow up to my e mail which was in response to her e mail. She has never given me her new mobile or landline numbers, if she ever rings then it is from her mobile with `number witheld` so I can never ring her. I was not expecting a response so remain neutral and in balance with myself. It was AS who has much insight, who taught me about this psychology. I refused to take it in for quite a while and then things added up and he is right

So the brain wiring is different, could not be anything else, she was treated exactly the same as the others and we are a close, kind and loving family. She became worse after my husband died. AS says this is likely because of guilt as she treated him the same way as me but to a lesser degree than now

Narcissists aren't just selfish and self centered. They are controlling, manipulative and emotionally abusive.

When they decide for eg. that they don't want their partners parents and other family members around, through lies and the manipulation of their partner, they gradually undermine those relationships.

As with all abusive relationships they seek to prevent the influence of others who may see the relationship as less than healthy, and be prepared to voice their concerns out of concern for their AC.

Friendships made years ago in childhood are similarly treated.

Our ES is married to a narcissist whose own family including her parents have been treated to the never ending game of contact one minute and non contact the next.

He comes from a large and loving family and the only family member he has any contact with is his brother, and even that is sparse.

Our DS lives on the other side of the world so any possible influence is pretty insignificant which is without doubt why they remain in contact. DS is a safe distance away.

It’s very sad, the epidemic of narcissism. We see it often with both AC and their parents.

Truthfully, I doubt many of them are narcissistic. Like the video says, narcissistic is who they are and who they have always been. In all relationships and in all avenues of their life.

AC who don’t have very good communication skills so they butcher communicating their plan to live their lives, making their own decisions and not have to defend themselves to their parents.

And those parents who just want to enjoy their AC who they put so much time and energy in to raising. But they struggle to make the transition from parent raising a child to parent with a peer relationship with their child.

Then throw the next generation in and all falls to pieces!

Parents want to raise their own children, with the lessons from their own life experience and their own desires for their family. And the grandparents want the AC to raise their children like they were raised. They get offended when their AC do things differently. They want to participate in all the parenting joys and private family moments because they just remember them so fondly when they were young parents. But they forget those moments aren’t their any more.

So everyone blames the other. Everyone claims the other is a narcissist. When in reality, as the visor says, everyone is just being a little selfish (as we humans are) and no one communicates and no one wants to give an inch.

Then the AC finally realize this is their only chance to raise their family and their parents are making is miserable for them. And since none of them can communicate, the AC say enough is enough. And shut their parents out in a desperate attempt to enjoy their own family. And their parents are heartbroken, angry and more determined than ever to get the AC “in line” so they can fall back into the comfortable role of parent.

Usually a fantastic mess it turns out to be.

So some people have children/parents/grandparents/in-laws/friends/relatives who seem selfish and self-centred and their attitudes and their views are different from ours.

A good reason to end the relationship in some cases, make it less close in others. But why do the people doing the cutting feel the need to hide behind the excuse that the offending person is narcissistic. As another poster said. Narcissism is a rare mental problem.

We all negotiate our relationships both familial and personal and stay close or distance ourselves from friends and family based on how well we get on. In my own family there have been members who are less or more engaged based on how they get on with parents, siblings and children. One side of my family do a good line in drama queens, which can be irritating at times..

So moderate your relationship with your daughter in line with how her behaviour impacts you. Then get on with life but do not claim she has that or this psychiatric condition that you have diagnosed, not a psychologist or psychiatrist, just to justfy your action.

If the relationship is difficult and you manage it by not seeing her too much, that is justification in itself.

Didn't we once call these people selfish or self-centred. Who diagnoses them?

Wait... Deb... I thought you had concluded that this was definitely about your D.

Also, D is deaf? I didn't know that. Very sorry. What would that have to do with her being "self-centered" though? Does it interfere with your communication with her? Or??

Good news, craftyone! It sounds as if AD is softening. But I think you're wise to proceed w/ caution.

The problem w/ the "narcissist" description, IMO, is that the term gets bandied about so much today. NOT accusing anyone here of doing that, just speaking in general. In fact, I think it was mentioned on another thread that if you look at Mumsnet, many of the women there refer to their estranged mums or MILs, etc. as "narcissists." Sometimes they say they went NC for that reason.

Maybe that's true in some cases, but that word does get used a lot. I think we have to think carefully before we conclude that a DD/DIL/DM/MIL/whoever is a narcissist.

yes smileless, I was hopeful last night but I am realistic and am not expecting anything much. I did hear that GD did receive my card and present so the reply was just a bit more response than I was hoping for. In the meantime I switch myself off and just get on with life, keeping my own sanity intact

That does sound hopeful craftyone. Keeping everything crossed that you get to see your GD.

my AC is not nasty or violent, covert is the word I would use. I did get a response yesterday, some advice in a youtube video was to go down `the right thing to do` tack. I did that in a very short matter of fact e mail about my gd. Her (GD) right to have a relationship with her nan. The first decent response from AD for a long time. That is how I am going to follow through. Now I sit with no contact and wait. There might be a result in the school holidays, there might not be but now AD has in her head that contact between GD and nan is the right thing

I don`t like this tactical stuff but if it works then so be it. My other 2 AC are warm and loving as am I. AD I have an issue with was born with cord around her neck, I often wonder if it was that, to make her wired so differently