Support for all who are living with estrangement

FWIW I think you're right to do what you're doing Granniesunite especially as your family member hasn't said they want no contact.

It must be exhausting and stressful. Getting the occasional response is a good sign so hold on to that if you can.

Thanks for answering our questions, Grannies! Your explanation outs a different face on things. Totally agree w/ everything Smileless said in the post above this one.

Hope those occasional replies become more frequent and that you eventually reconcile.

Hugshelp, IMO, ES' calling you a "drama queen" is on the level w/ calling someone "oversensitive," as has been discussed before. He may just be saying that to try to brush off the idea that he may have really hurt you. Or to try to make DD question the idea (Surely, she won't.) Chances are, he thought about it privately afterwards, though if so, apparently, it didn't change anything. So sorry.

Just got back from a Battle of Britain service at church this morning.

It was lovely; retired service men proudly wearing their medals and carrying banners. The last post was played and that always brings a tear to my eyes.

Have a good Sunday ladies.

Oh yes Granniesunite - if you are getting the occasional reply I'd certainly keep on as you are, even though it's so difficult when you are met with silence much of the time.
Although I haven't heard from our ES, our DH has on occasion and I think he took e-mail classes in the same place as yours, sadly, smileless - the F-off, you never cared attitude really rings a bell. And nothing could be further from the truth. I/we may have made mistakes but not caring was never one of them.
I do feel DD being swayed by him sometimes starlady - I can tell when he's been 'working' on her, but she always tries really hard to see both sides. In all honesty, I don't encourage her to talk about him any more. I don't ask much any more. But if she needs to talk when she's upset about him, I do of course need to listen and be there the best I can, however hard it might feel at times.
The church service sounds lovely smileless.

Yes it was hugshelp, just what I needed.

I know what you mean, 'you never cared'. I wonder what they they thought we were doing for all those years.

It must be very hard for you and your DD and it must be difficult when she's upset.

I do wonder if having people that you have cut off, continuously trying to renew contact fuels their justification that they did the right thing.

I don't know TBH. I tend to think that if someone has cut you off and then continuously tries to renew contact it can be rather disturbing.

It's different if they're looking for reconciliation, wanting to find a way to move forward with the relationship but if not, what's the point.

youtu.be/zsE_rwL03rE

If the person who has cut you off has done so because of a strongly narcissistic disposition, continuing to try to persuade that person to become a bit more:

self-aware

receptive to differing views, including your own perspective or that of grandchildren

empathic

humble

sincerely apologetic when appropriate

fair-minded

considerate

flexible

open and honest about feeling vulnerable and about triggers for that feeling which (s)he struggles to deal with and strives to avoid as much as possible

willing to talk about what has been difficult and upsetting for him or her

understanding and valuing of reciprocity within relationships

remorseful about the impact of her or his self-serving rationalisations, mean and punitive responses, dismissiveness, denials, angry outbursts, scorn, desire to humiliate and shame and about projections of his or her own shortcomings onto you as a handy scapegoat

interested in working on having healthier and happier relationships

mindful of possible adverse, long term consequences of pursuing this extremely self-regarding path

interested in taking steps towards reconciliation

will probably be both futile - like talking to the cliched brick wall - and injurious to your own psychological wellbeing.

Dr. Les Carter has produced a great number of videos - on YouTube - which are insightful and may be very helpful.

I agree Cherries and I think 'talking to a brick wall' also applies to a person whose cut you out due to the influence and control of a narcissist.

That was certainly our experience with our ES.

Smileless2012, thanks for your affirmation. Do you suspect that your ES has been "brainwashed", so to speak, by a partner with strong narcissistic tendencies? Is he possibly allowing himself to be used to serve the purpose of providing "narcissistic supply", compensation for his partner's hidden fears of personal inadequacy, even although this goes against his scruples about how to behave in a more reasonable, mature and satisfying way?

We do believe he's been manipulated and controlled by his wife who has strong narcissistic tendencies.

Following our estrangement we were told by some who knew her as a child that she'd displayed traits even then. I suppose he has been "allowing himself to be used" to provide narcissistic supply; he's become her enabler. I believe that once their first child was born he became more susceptible to emotional blackmail.

Before the birth of their first child, even during the pregnancy he appeared to be aware of her manipulative ways and would question her treatment of others and her accusations.

I'm not sure if "hidden fears of personal inadequacy" applies in our case. She wears her 'fears' like medals of honour in order to illicit sympathy from others.

She'll portray herself as the victim when in reality it is those she's involved with who eventually if not immediately become her victim.

Before our estrangement she complained constantly about a coworker who was bullying her. Not knowing her true nature at that time we supported her, giving her advice and coping mechanisms.

Her oldest friend from school began working for the same company and also prior to our estrangement, she fell out with her and despite her and our son being God parents to one of their children, she cut them off. Although we were told of the fall out, we were never told the reason why.

Some time after our estrangement Mr. S. bumped into her former friend who explained that rather than being bullied, our ES's wife was the bully. Her friend feeling uncomfortable with the way this woman was being treated, spoke to her about it and that was why she ended the friendship.

Our ES was a lovely young man with a kind, thoughtful and generous nature. I used to think that her behaviour, his acceptance, and later his promotion and sharing of it must go against his scruples, but after 7 years I now wonder if he's lost those scruples all together.

Lost them or gave them away for the sake of his marriage and his children.

I guess your last sentence is all that needs to be said Smileless! It makes me think would it be better if your DIL ran off with someone else and left your husband and grandchildren. No doubt some will say 'that's terrible' but I think what has happened is terrible!

It is terrible loveOc.

When I look back I can't believe how blind I was. I had no idea and am usually a pretty good judge of character.

Maybe not being able to see shows just how 'good' she is.

Smileless, I don't think it is a case of being blind. We love our children and naturally want them to be happy. Therefore we just choose to ignore, consciously or unconsciously traits we see in our adult children's partners. We want to like/love who they choose.

That's a good point loveOc and if we had had concerns, what could we have done? Nothing.

I suspect there's no one right answer that fits our various situations. All our EC may need/want different things, but as they aren't, in the main, communicating with us, or if so not very well, it's very hard to have any idea what they really do want.

We love them unconditionally but we can't read their minds.

I am not having a good day today.

I know that I am lucky that DD now appears to be actively seeking reconciliation, but I am still struggling to get my head round the fact that she gave birth to her first child and didn't tell us until the child was 14 months old. I thought that a daughter would need her mother to support her emotionally and be there for her and that it would bring them closer as they are both then mothers. I am genuinely really pleased that the other GP are close by and are clearly very supportive. But I feel so rejected, so surplus to requirements. We used to be close, she used to confide in me, said I was 'her best friend and role model'. It just makes me feel such a failure.

We have arranged to meet in the New Year when DGD2 will have been born and we will then meet the other GP for the first time, but I already feel sick with anxiety about it. They must think we are terrible, monsters, if our own daughter doesn't even want us to know about the baby. Maybe they think we are abusive in some way. And I also feel humiliated, that they have known about this precious first DGD since before birth and were there for my DD and I wasn't. I don't feel jealous of them, but just so hurt that they are preferred, not even preferred, but the only people she needed at such a momentous time in her life. That the person I gave birth too and loved so much didn't even want me to know when she had her baby. And whether DGD1 will even like me - and SIL will judge us if she doesn't, but she might pick up on the tension. And what should she call us. I am coming round to the view that I would prefer that she call me by my Christian name in case things don't work out.

And I am so, so sad and disappointed to have missed out on the joy of the first DGC, to have already missed so many milestones. I look at the photos of her and see a lovely smiley baby, but it also brings me a lot of pain. It's as though all of the joy has been sucked out of it. I wanted to share the precious moments. to be there for DD but she just didn't want me.

I am sorry to be a pity party and I generally feel better as the day wears on. DD3 is here at the moment and is very supportive, as is DD2. I know I am very lucky and part of the reason for venting on here is that I don't want to over rely on other family members, who have their own pain to deal with. DH is pragmatic and just wants to move forward - which I also do, but it feels that when I have positive feelings, which I do, the next minute I will be overwhelmed by negativity, fear, and paralysis. I am just beginning to fully process the information and I feel as though I have been mown down by a ten ton truck. I feel physically sick.

@Smileless I have similar feelings about my SIL and have preferred to blame him for the estrangement - he made her choose, when she shouldn't have had to, but I knew that he would. What kind of person encourages their DH or DW to estrange from a happy family - which we were? Is it a power trip or insecurity or revenge for perceived or unforgiven slights? Having said that, as my other DDs keep telling me, responsibility can't be laid entirely at SIL's door as DD has gone along with it. I actually don't imagine for one moment that SIL would treat his family in the way he has encouraged DD to treat hers.

I hope everyone else is doing ok today and my apologies that this post is so long.

Dolcelatte, maybe you should speak with your doctor. Everything you are feeling is completely normal and understandable, but it's a big massive thing that has happened. For you and your daughter to move forward together, finding the right way to cope is so important. This amount of shock can absolutely cause anxiety and depression. I'm really hoping things work out for you. Us mums are tougher than we think.

I would have thought your daughter is suffering too... Becoming a parent changes us in so many ways, sometimes it forces us to grow up, sometimes it helps us develop new understandings. Something went wrong somewhere and I hope that the two of you can come together and learn together and you both come out of it all stronger than before.

Dear Dolcelatte you have so much to process right now, it's no wonder that you're on an emotional roller coaster, high one minute, then down and then on an even keel.

You posted previously that your D told you her parents in law had encouraged them to tell you about your first GD. Would they have done so if they believed you to be monsters? No, of course not.

Up until now they've had their precious GD all to themselves. Why would they want to share her with her other GP's if they thought you wouldn't be a healthy influence in her life?

I understand your worry about what your GD will call you in case things don't work out. I would wait and see how your D introduces you to her. If she tells her this is your GM, nan or nanny could you go with that and let it be your D's decision rather than yours?

This little girl is your GD, the love you already feel just seeing her photo's will be intensified the moment you walk into a room and she's there. God forbid that things wont work out for you all but if they don't, it wont hurt any less if she never called you GM.

Three and a half months is along time to wait, a long time to experience those feelings that make you feel sick with anxiety. It's a long time for you and your DH, for your D and her H and his parents.

They may also be feeling anxious. Your D and s.i.l. having waited so long to tell you they have a D and his parents knowing how much you've missed out on that can never be replaced.

TBH if I were those other GP's it would be worrying me what you thought of us. Who knows how often they spoke to their son and your D, suggesting that they contact you and share their wonderful news. Who knows how they felt knowing that their son with his wife had asked his parents' in law for a 'loan' which was given and still hadn't been told they had a GD.

I can honestly say if either of our son's had behaved in that was I would have been furious.

You're not a pity party and you're right to come here to tell your virtual friends how you feel. If posting here spreads the load so to speak and helps to keep some of your pain away from those you love, that's what's important.

As for our ES and his wife, I don't believe for one moment this would have happened if he hadn't married her or someone just like her. That said, it was ultimately his choice and his responsibility.

Now I need to apologise for my long post, but I'm holding you responsible due to the length of yours.

Be gentle with yourself Dolcelatte. We're here for you. xx

We don't know the extent of her control and manipulation it's true. We can't say that she would never treat her family the way we've been treated, because she has.

dolcelatte.... so very sad. My heart goes out to you. I can feel that pain and upset and totally understand all you feel.

smileless again your words and advice to dolcelatte is so very empathetic. So much pain caused by our loved ones. I didn’t sleep til after four this morning so I’m off out today to try and get some peace from nature. Estrangement does affect your health. My thoughts and prAyers to all who are in distress.

Dolcelatte, I joined Gransnet just to reply to your post, I've been reading the estrangement threads and your ED is just like mine. My ED also walked away from our family without a backward glance and joined her partner's family. I haven't seen her for seven years. So much pain, having lost my role as her mother and knowing her MIL has celebrated all the important occasions with her instead of me. She was so loved and I thought we were close as she grew up, but as it turns out she had no great affection for me and didn't need me for anything in her life. I've come to terms with it now, but I have some fears that at some stage I will be blindsided like you have been with the chance discovery of grandchildren I had no idea existed.

My ED, like yours, made contact to ask for money a little while ago. I refused though, the money wasn't essential for her well being and I felt I had given enough to her over the years. She is in a wonderful career and will be wealthy in a few years. I feel you were very brave to resume contact with your ED in a situation where you have had to buy a relationship with her, your ED sounds like a cold fish and you must naturally be very concerned about how long she will stay in touch and what relationship you will be allowed long term with her children.

Was it your husband who decided to offer your ED the money she asked for? I think that all your really upset feelings are quite normal, but your husband seems to be riding rather roughshod over your natural misgivings and I disagree with him that you are being unduly negative. The situation sounds dreadful and with so many opportunities to go wrong and cause further heartbreak to you.

I wish I had some good advice, but all I can do is empathise. The thing I really regret about my estrangement is how I let it affect my other relationships though, eventually I realised that my ED had moved on and there was no point in all my anguish, so maybe all I can offer is the suggestion that you love the people who love you and put the situation with your ED aside as much as you can. Maybe put the photos of the gd away and leave it all until the new year.

Thank you Lost and Smileless for your kind words and support. I don't think I need medical help. I have some negative, intense feelings of hurt and bewilderment, but I think I just need to process things really and come to terms with the situation as it is. We can't change the past, only how we react in the present and the future.

I do sense a change in my daughter's approach and that she is beginning to have a different perspective. She says I shouldn't think about what has happened, and acts as though she wants to pick up from where we were. We have had some long conversation but, in a way, I think it is better to try to put the why's and wherefores to one side - assuming that we can move forward, I expect that we will talk them through in time, when we are ready and the pain and raw emotion has faded. In the meantime, she is texting virtually every day and has sent more photos.

Smileless, you are right that it is a long time to wait to visit, but DD is quite late in pregnancy so the last thing I want to do is to upset her. I am sure that Lost Child is right in saying that she also has hurt and pain around the situation and probably some anxiety about the meeting. DD has said that I can be Granny - the other GM is Nana but that's fine by me.

My daughter has also suggested that her sisters should text her since they know about her news. It's though she just wants to pick up from where we left off with no discussions. I can go along with that - I think - with my eye on the bigger picture of reconciliation, but they don't feel quite the same. They are both extremely hurt and whilst they are open to reconciliation, they feel that DD1 has to initiate it. However, they are very taken by the baby so hopefully all will eventually turn out ok.

DD3 has just given me a big hug and my lovely dogs are with me. Plus my kind friends on here have cheered me up. Thank you! xx

PS Keeping this post shorter