“We start school too early in the UK!”

That is sad

Mollygo

NotSpaghetti
Learning through play was what children used to do in a home situation-one adult to very few children.
The situations arose naturally, e.g. properties of wet and dry sand through play in a sandpit, (we had sand in a baby bath).
Or sorting things, buttons, toy cars etc. Cutting out paper dolls and clothes (scissor skills) then playing with them, (imaginative play. Building with wooden bricks or Lego bricks and finding out which structures were stronger. Involving adults in games and imaginative play, usually mum or grandma, but dads and granddads also played a part.
The problem now is that no UK government will fund a sufficient staff to child ratio for all children to benefit.
So learning through play, though effort is made to supply the necessary situations and equipment, is always going to be a watered down version of that parroted as the ideal from other countries.
Add to that that many parents of today’s children didn’t experience that for themselves so even if they keep their children off school (Covid) they don’t understand what learning through play involves.

Can't help but agree with this. I do not want the clock turned back nor women's opportunities curtailed, but I do think that small children are being sold short. They are being plunged into environments that require too much of them and supply little individual attention.

And then they are moved on to the demands of school which are too much too young. We then have an epidemic of diagnoses of neurodiversity of varying degrees. I am not suggesting for a moment that these problems do not exist, but the environments in which children are now raised are so abnormal to a child's nature that they throw up these problems as abnormalities in the child, rather than looking at the settings and diagnosing them.

I don't believe in governments raising a child and I don't think women should have children if they are not going to take responsibility for the child's upbringing I think there is validity in that statement, but would extend it to include both parents; and taking responsibility for a child's upbringing can also include settings outside of the home as long as these are age appropriate and sufficiently well-staffed and monitored and focus on learning through play in the under 7's.

Spending a while on Mumsnet can be interesting. The overwhelming thrust of posters' views is that women should be out in the workplace, primarily to protect themselves when their relationship breaks down - it is very depressing to read. And there are endless posts about how children are being diagnosed as ND, or having mental health problems in their teens. I do not know whether there is a causal relationship between this and their early child care experiences, but intuitively joining up the dots is tempting.

Whatever the facts might be, I feel very strongly that childhood is a precious and irreplaceable time in a person's life and the delaying of suppressing their natural instinct to imagine, play and explore the world with enthusiasm should be a priority.

And don't get me started on screens .........

In the Maternelle and nursery classes in France, children can start school once they are toilet trained. Formal education is compulsory from the age of three. From what I saw they are focussed on learning pre-school skills to be ready for the first Primary School class at 6.
I

Babies and raising children is a full time job. Anyone can replace an employee at the workplace but no one can replace a (loving) mother in the home.

... or father, or some other primary and important caretaker...

"I don't believe in governments raising a child and I don't think women should have children if they are not going to take responsibility for the child's upbringing".
I think you mean parents. It is the quality of care that counts. A good nursery is a much safer and more stimulating place for a child than poor parenting.

Going through nursery allows for better exposure, but the age when a kid starts doesn't matter so long as they are not above preschoolers. My opinion.

Mamie

"I don't believe in governments raising a child and I don't think women should have children if they are not going to take responsibility for the child's upbringing".
I think you mean parents. It is the quality of care that counts. A good nursery is a much safer and more stimulating place for a child than poor parenting.

Absolutely. And I think it's important to distinguish between children going to school or nursery from whatever age, and what - or how - they are actually being taught. Personally I don't think they do go to school (or nursery) too early here in the UK.

Macaydia

I dont believe in governments raising a child and I dont think women should have children if they are not going to take responsibility for the child's upbringing.

Why Governments? My children were lucky in having wonderful state nursery provision from a young age back in the 70s, but not all nurseries are LA run. With no LA nurseries nearby, my grandchildren went to excellent and carefully chosen private nurseries.
Do you think you have the right to judge other people's life choices? It is the results that matter.

Mamie

In the Maternelle and nursery classes in France, children can start school once they are toilet trained. Formal education is compulsory from the age of three. From what I saw they are focussed on learning pre-school skills to be ready for the first Primary School class at 6.
I

We almost moved to France many years ago and the one piece of advice that I had from parents over there was that the education system is very rigid and not something that we should subject our children to lightly.

I must agree with Luckygirl, ( especially about the screens!), and, when working in Early Years, I was always trying to champion the value of a stay at home parent, and the many practical learning opportunities that could arise for an adult and child to do together, as well as social and linguistic benefits. I remember going to a conference where one of the talks was about the damage done to children who were evacuees during the war, and causing quite a stir afterwards by suggesting to my colleagues that maybe in years to come we would be debating harm done by placing a child in nursery more or less from birth!
Of course, the world has changed, and we must equip these young people to take their place in this changed world, but I do think so many opportunities for creativity are being lost, even though I am assured that a child can be just as creative with screens and technology, as with paper and paint, or musical instruments.
I hae ma doots.

Luckygirl3

Mamie

In the Maternelle and nursery classes in France, children can start school once they are toilet trained. Formal education is compulsory from the age of three. From what I saw they are focussed on learning pre-school skills to be ready for the first Primary School class at 6.
I

We almost moved to France many years ago and the one piece of advice that I had from parents over there was that the education system is very rigid and not something that we should subject our children to lightly.

I would agree with that. When I taught English in Primary Schools (after retiring and moving to France), I found the curriculum rigid and schools lacking the resources that we are used to in the UK. I didn't spend much time in the Maternelle, apart from teaching some nursery rhymes and songs, but it seemed overall to be a happy environment with a well-planned curriculum. Going home for lunch was not allowed and the children sat down to a lengthy three course lunch (as we did in the staff room).
The system is like many other things in France; the state looks after you and you do your duty as a good citizen. Family is important, so on Wednesdays when schools were closed, you would see lots of grandparents in charge.

My lasting memories of école maternelle was watching a 3.5 year old having his picture torn up because he had used the wrong colours and being told that I had to say eet eez uh red bull to describe one of these. 🔴
Their do it a home workbooks which include maths reading and writing were very popular with some parents, who wanted their children to get ahead.

Starting too early and having too short summer break... everything is geared up towards working parents and not children wellbeing

Children are formalised into schools at far too young. Moat countries start school at 6 or 7. The pioneers of early childhood education such as Froebel, Montessori, Owen, McMillan and Isaacs all have demonstrated this alongside the importance of quality play. However, the economic factor of getting parents into work means that the children need institutions to be ‘cared’ for in. The cost of early childhood is high because of the ratios and numbers allowed but Scandinavian and other countries factor this into taxes unlike us. People complain about paying more for childcare than for a cleaner here! The best option we had were maintained nursery schools with children’s centres running alongside providing all day, all year care and highly trained staff. Those were mainly destroyed by the Conservative government so we have a mishmash of private, independent, school settings plus childminders and play settings. grandparents also play an important role. There is a price to pay for all of these but we must consider the suitability for very young babies and those with unique needs.
Quality play and learning costs and we need to invest in the future generations rather than forcing too much too soon.

Cossy

Much prefer the Scandinavian model, plenty of outdoors activities, plenty of play, plenty of time to form friendships and build confidence.

My daughter in Cornwall runs a school on these lines. Much of the time is spent outdoors. She is a great believer in not starting formal teaching too early. They need hand/eye coordination for holding tools, physical confidence etc first.

Macaydia

I dont believe in governments raising a child and I dont think women should have children if they are not going to take responsibility for the child's upbringing.

Other gender parents are also available for the raising of children.

I also think our children start school too young. My youngest grandson was six earlier this month and is in year 1. I’ll never forget him saying but it’s so long to playtime! His teacher put him on first concerns because he was not advancing with either reading or writing. He had absolutely zero interest in drawing, colouring or reading a book for himself. Yet in the last month all has changed. He suddenly found an interest in drawing and proved to be rather good at it. From there his writing has come along in leaps and bounds. It wasn’t that he couldn’t do it, he didn’t want to. But through play, at home he discovered something he wanted to do and he’s ready. I believe there was never a reason to be concerned, he simply wasn’t ready. Now he is.

Having lived in many countries and as an English Language examiner who travelled to Italy to examine in schools at least 60 times (and many other countries) then I agree with early learning, although through play. My grandchildren, who started their education at a Montessori school and are now 6 and 8 can both read perfectly, have a large vocabulary and are very bright for their ages. I found that in many countries, the children who had had no formal pre-school education were not as advanced as those in other countries who had.

To Mamie who asked me, "Do you think you have the right to judge other people's life choices?"
No, Mamie. I am not a judge and yes, I do state my opinion on matters, even if it's unpopular.

When I started school in the 50s we went first term after our 5th birthday. When I started I could already read and do simple 'sums' as we used to call it. All learnt by every day things such as reading with parents, nan etc. We used to have a nap every afternoon after lunch on little camp beds and playtime before hometime. I think early education should start informally and without pressure, if kids are enjoying things and having fun, education sinks in of its accord. We put far too much pressure on all kids with formal education these days, it's no wonder they are growing up with mental problems.

Paperbackwriter
Other gender parents are also available for the raising of children.

Women, by design, are built for raising their children, up to a certain age. Men are made for allowing the mother to safely nurture their offspring. Exceptions are made for anomolies.

Statistically, the child is safer with a female kindergarten teacher and not a male.

Q) Why do males of every mammal species not produce milk?

A) By design.

Our children were brought up in the Netherlands. They start school on their 4th birthday but learn through play. They do not start formal education until they are six when they learn very quickly.

Observations from my own family are that many girls are ready to learn at age 4 but many boys are not. Girls retain this advantage until the mid teens. At that age boys have a 'brain' growth spurt but girls do not.
So delaying the start of formal education until 6/7 would be a disadvantage for girls it seems to me,