Grammar Schools

It's not just manners if you grow up with neighbours who use and deal drugs, if your clothes and shoes are the results of shoplifting, if being sent away for a bit to a young offenders institution is commonplace you aren't going to flourish in school. And if your family is simply a nice one living in the same area you really will struggle to access and progress in school and an overworked teaching staff can only give limited help.

Yes, you're right trisher...social skills are an obstacle to many children's careers. I live in a rough part of the north and I know that I would be reluctant to employ any of the local school-leavers, simply because of their lack of good manners and respect for others.
However, I went to a grammar school myself, and was taught high standards. Manners and attitudes do matter....passing exams is not enough to get on in life. I wish more schools realised that.

I went to a grammar school but I am absolutely convinced that these were not the main reason that there was working class progress in the 60s. There were areas where upper and middle class people tended not to compete, they were the arts and theatre and engineering. Now state education severly restricts children's access to the first two of these and the privately educated have realised they are the way to make money. Engineering hardly exists any longer although computing which could be regarded as its successor offers some hope for poorer students. Returning to grammar schools would do little to open pathways. There are still very few poor people reaching the highest levels in any of the most influential fields such as law, politics or banking. But then there were even less in the '60s. And when they do acheive progress these people bring with them the values they have learned growing up, so a successful barrister will choose not to work in the most lucrative areas but will choose human rights or immigration because they have a social conscience.
There is a problem with schools and education but it is a problem which permeates society and children bring their home problems into the classroom. Expecting teachers to fix things is a bit like caling a plumber when there's a flood. Until there is proper funding and support working class families will struggle and education will be pot luck. It's not a problem grammar schools could fix.

Our whole education system needs a complete overhaul. The present system of 'one size fits all' is unfair on the brighter children.
Children are not all the same and shouldn't be treated as though they are. Most quickly show where their aptitudes lie at quite a young age. They should then be separated, so their particular skills can be developed.
This was the thinking behind the 11+, and generally, it worked well.
Bright children from poorer families should be given the opportunity to reach their full potential. Grammar schools do exactly that. At the moment many are held back because teachers have to waste time instilling discipline into those who really would be better off learning practical skills.

My mother went to grammar school. She didn't go to university, foolishly chosing to go the 'arty' route. Which pretty much sealed her fate for poverty later in life.

However, her grammar school education put her a step above most other working class girls/women. The knock on effect of this was to give her children the value of education. We went to comprehensives (which were then and still mostly are bad) BUT went into further education later in life, DUE to our value of education instilled early on by our mother.

Both of her children are now postgraduates and earn good salaries. The knock on effect of a grammar school education.

As a teacher now (have worked in 5 UK comprehensives), I can testify, comprehensives mostly don't work. The lower level students drag down the education of the higher level ones. Cruel, but true.

I don't have a solution. Or I'd be a politician. I guess the same old things for teachers. NOT pay. Reduced workload. An exhausted teacher can't give those higher level working class children the extra time they need to counteract the lack of entry advantage middle-class students have. Handling bad behaviour day in, day out is part what exhausts teachers. Also 35 students per class. The sheer amount of lessons taught (each lesson necessitates at least 30 minutes planning). Marking. Meetings. Data. Reports.

I teach just as many hours now in a private school. But no behaviour issues. Much smaller classes. And my stress load is more than halved.

Reported.

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calendergirl

Well done to your granddaughter, you must be very proud of her, as indeed I would be.

I don’t want to take anything away from the very bright children, my concern is for the ones left behind

Streaming as practised in the comprehensive schools I have known, gives children the chance to move between streams as they mature, and also the chance to be in different streams for different subjects.
Grammar schools, although they may stream internally, have established that at 11 (or in reality, 10) you are divided for the rest of your school career.

My GD starts at the local grammar school in September. Last year at this time she would be taking the 11+ almost as soon as she returned to school in September. She did some practice papers at home and that was all, unlike many of her friends who had been having private tutors for ages. She passed with a good mark, DS and DIL felt that it was on her own ability.
A teacher friend of theirs who works at the grammar school said they can pick out the tutored children. But she had her own son tutored!

One of my grandaughters was telling me at the weekend that she wouldn’t see her friend much in the holidays because she was being coached for grammar school, this is in an area where state schools are better than average, I hope it’s worth it

I failed my 11+ thank goodness I would not have done the work required so it was the local high school. I enjoyed school and went on to technical college learned my trade.
Grammar schools are great for those with an academic brain, two of my daughters went to grammar school, they are now accountants, the third daughter from high school, became a midwife, she was the only one to go to Uni.

My comment on current education is, the brightest kids are much better than my generation but the below average kids are much worse. In particular they are not prepared for work the way we were. So much for equality of opportunity.

My daughter lives in a London borough with grammar schools. DGD (aged 4) is starting school in September & one of the topics of conversation amongst the mums is coaching for the grammar school entrance exams.

Woodmouse

You are right, many children failed because of anxiety, it was built up for so long to be so important. Our primary school headmaster kept telling us “this is where we separate the sheep from the goats” and would then go on to explain how dramatically those goats and sheeps lives would vary

It was assumed I would pass, and I didn’t, I don’t think I was ever really forgiven, and I think my dad pretty much lost interest in me from then on

I’m not saying I could have passed, I’ll never know, but there were a lot of bright children at the secondary Modern, and some children not expected to pass did

All water under the bridge now, but being labelled a goat at ten, is pretty unfair

jackfowler "Streaming students tends to work pretty well, in general. Grammar schools are just a way of streaming such that more academic children can be challenged at the right level."

I think there are enough posts here, including my first one, to prove that streaming at 11 hasn't worked for a huge amount of children. 11 year olds currently have the pressure of SATs. I'd hate to see that pressure increase.

Absolutely agree trisha - I was born in 1949. Failed 11+. Looking back, I know now it was through sheer nerves. All my close friends passed! I started sec mod a very lonely unhappy girl. Took me a long time to gain the confidence to want to achieve.

In 1986 I got my B.Ed.Hons degree (2.1). Just missed getting a first. All children deserve to achieve their full potential. I do hope Grammars do not come back. My final job, up to retirement, was Deputy Head of large city primary school and Head of the Unit within the school for deaf children.

Eloethan

I too am a “failure”

I agree pretty much with everything you’ve said, and I am a bit uncomfortable about seeing Grammar Schools rolled out again , but I think if we can offer a really good alternative, it’s alright to skim off a few exceptional children

But if we see a return of the Secondary Modern, that would indeed be a disaster for millions of children

I absolutely disagree with grammar schools.

I admit I am biased because I didn't pass the 11 plus but, from my experience, it was made very clear to secondary modern students that they were unfitted for anything other than shop or office work, or - at a push - nursing. Many of us bought into this notion but, on reflection, I feel I, and others, could have achieved a great deal more.

As others have said, we have never had a proper comprehensive system because there were - and still are - so many areas that retain grammar and technical schools.

I totally approve of streaming, one of my children suffered from being out of her depth, and that didn’t pull her up, it made her feel worthless and stupid, luckily we were in a position to move her before too much damage was done, I think maybe grammar schools are fine for a small percentage of very bright children, but there has to be a really good alternative, also some movement between the two systems, a child who isn’t exceptional at 11, may have made enormous progress by 13

Quizqueen - as I'm sure you know, socialists want to pay a proper amount of tax, to fund education so that every school is a good school.
Of course our current unfair system puts parents in difficult situations. We give a regular donation to our GCs' school in order to help. Indeed I pay out for various causes what I think I 'should' pay in tax.
I am deeply grateful that my own children went to school in an authority that funded comprehensive education properly and that they had a decent education alongside a mixed bunch of kids.

The problem is that in theory they are great, and can be great, but in practice it’s very hard to apply the system fairly.

Streaming students tends to work pretty well, in general. Grammar schools are just a way of streaming such that more academic children can be challenged at the right level.

One thing my children have which I certainly never had is confidence, they can all get along with anyone, I envy them that

Sara, indeed a good education is never wasted. I did a degree in later life and many of my cohort at secondary school did well in the world of work despite low expectations from some staff.

Silverlinings

My husband and I both went to secondary Mods, and felt we’d like to give all our children better opportunities and sent them all to independent schools, they all now have come back to work in the family business, but at least they had the chance

At my secondary modern it was expected pupils would work in office, shop or factory. A few high fliers may have left at 16 after taking two or three GCEs but most of us left at 15 with no exams taken. I knew no one with an A level or anyone who went to university.
Both my children went to the local grammar school, both went to university but neither have made their fortune as they opted to work for the public good.