Grammar Schools

Is that legal in Scotland bags ?

ceriptificate!!!!

My parents did "school ceriptificate" (like 'O' level, I believe) and A-levels. I and my siblings did O- and A-levels, my elder two daughters did GCSEs and A-levels, my ex-husband and his siblings did O-grades, Highers and Sixth
Year Studies, Minibags is going to do Highers and then, probably, whatever it is they do in Sixth year in Scottish schools.

Jargon, jargon, rhubarb, rhubarb

Thanks, wheniwas. All the jargon goes in one ear and out the other with me, especially as Minibags is going straight for Highers, as that means I don't have to remember what everything else is called!

Gracesgran, the Direct Grant school in which I taught was, up to a point, selective, and scholarships were given to bright kids whose parents couldn't afford the fees. However, there was certainly another kind of selection because some of the youngsters would never have been accepted on any academic criterion. I viewed our lowest streams as the place where the well-to-do of the city sent their less able offspring; though they might be good at rugby, hockey, tennis...

Penstemmon have we now sorted out how Direct Grants were funded or do you have evidence that no one paid as you said previously? I my view they were the most selective of selective schools and I wouldn't put it past the Conservatives to try something along the same lines again, yet again being divisive at an early age.

I am another 11 plus failure. I went to a secondary modern and was very happy there. I left at 16 and got work straight away as a nursing cadet. I went on to do nurse training at 18 and became an SRN and after that did midwifery training and qualified though did not practi..se midwifery. I had a long career as a nurse before retiring.
One of my sisters passed for the grammar school but was unhappy there.She left at 15 and got what was known as a ''dead end' job in a shop. She worked in shops till she retired and was very happy doing so.
My DGD1 went to a comprehensive with a poor reputation.She was one of the brightest pupils there and went to university and obtained a degree in Maths. She is now working in a big London bank and training to be a Chartered Accountant. Her sister, DGD2 went to the same school and began working as a trainee PA to a head of department at a university but is on Maternity leave at the moment.

I had a varied educational experience..starting in English state primaries, then overseas 'British Government' schools, private boarding school and state 'bi-lateral' . My teaching experience began in inner London state primaries, then some greater London schools , back to inner -city and ending at a greater London school.
There were academically bright and able children at all of them as well as kids who struggled with basic skills. There were brilliant teachers and weak teachers, hard working people and those that did as little as they could get away with, those who really liked kids and some who dd not.

What limited kids achievement most was poor expectation.

If you put kids into a school and tell them this is a good school, you have been chosen to be here and you will do well here then usually the majority do. If you stick kids in a school where they feel they are the 'also rans' because they did not make the academic grade or feel they lost out in the lottery of school places then many will fulfill that expectation.
We need to invest and create state of the art technical and vocational schools/colleges, linked to industry, where kids, on successful completion of their tests/assessments/exams can expect to be offered jobs /apprenticeships /sponsored uni / HE places.

If I was i/c education I would have this organisation :3+-7 , 7+- 13, 13+-18. At 13 children could choose between three 'majors': Creative arts, technical and vocational or scholarly. What ever the 'major' students chose they would still have to choose courses from the other two majors to follow, e.g Major in Creative arts, subsiduary in computer programming and French.

Dram on!

England has always been obsessed with class. Apart from a short period after WW2, now it's sinking back to the level of the 1930s. Them and us.

Penstemmon - I passed the 11 plus in 1958 and went to a bi-lateral school. Interestingly on our first day the teacher asked us to put up our hands if we had passed the 11plus. I think about four kids hadn't. I went there because it was close to home.

I loved it there and enjoyed meeting a wide range of people. The catchment area included three huge council estates and three really affluent parts of the city. We mixed during House activities and during games and I learnt a lot about class etc.,

I can now get along with everyone I meet regardless of background. I wouldn't have changed it for anything.

My husband went to a Grammar School (fee paying) because he had a high 11 plus mark but he was a working class boy and was made to feel that nearly every day.

As I understand it in these selective schools a quarter of the places were directly funded by central government, while the remainder attracted fees, some paid by the Local Education Authority and some by private pupils. This was certainly true of the Direct Grant Grammar I attended (my third secondary school). The places the local authority paid for were on a "scholarship" basis.

When the system was abandoned in 1976 by the then Labour government, the schools had to decide whether to be fully local authority or fully independent.

thatbags, may I just mention that Standard Grades have now gone and we have National 4s and 5s now, as well as Intermediate 1 and 2, so there is quite a choice of exams on the way to Highers (and Advanced Highers).

Penstemmon - it might have been slightly different in Scotland. The school I taught in received its funding direct from the Scottish Office and rather than receive LEA funding in addition, the parents did pay fees. My father was an old boy of that very school.

Were not wee!

may2015.com/

These polls show Labour ahead, Gracesgran.

Anno direct grant schools were not in any way reliant on fees from parents. They were similar to academies except wee still under the monitoring eye of a Local Authority.

Juliette, I was responsible for the ones who were not supposed to want to work. If they had been withdrawn, they would have all been together and not wanting to work. Because they watched others who wanted to work, they did, too.

However, whatever I say about it, there will be some who do not believe me.
So what's new?

Should have said - very important - if the Conservatives win a majority.

It looks as if it doesn't matter which type of school, Grammar or Comprehensive, there is going to be a real terms cut in school funding. There could be an actual cut in early years and post 16 spending and a freeze on the rest.

Oh indeed granj children of drug users come from all social strata, kids brought up by a series of Nannies feeling neglected, kids living in homes where there is domestic abuse, parents too busy with their own lives are found at all levels of society.....

My first teaching job was in what was then known as a Direct Grant school, partly financed by parents paying fees. This was the 'poshest' school in the city and had some of the worst mannered children I have come across, especially one obnoxious class of 13-14 year-old girls.

Indeed Penstemmon... and perhaps a timely reminder that so called 'dysfunctional' families come from all walks of life and cultures and do not adhere to stereotypes!

Mixed ability happens at every level of education. There are 4 & 5 year olds who are very able to share and work in a group of 30 and others of the same age who are still incredibly egocentric and overwhelmed by being in a big group but a reception teacher manages this through professional skill.

There are many skilled and well trained teachers , teaching at all stages of education, who are able to teach mixed ability groups very well.

Of course it is easier to teach students who are all motivated and well supported by their families and easier again if they are all at a similar stage of development/understanding.

Hands up who wants to teach the class of 30 unmotivated, angry kids form very dysfunctional families?

I can assure you the same happens in Grammar schools or private schools- as all departments have to have set and cover an appropriate curriculum for each year group- which has to be adhered to- with what is expected at different levels of ability. There is no way of avoiding this, and inspections make sure of it.

Different for maths, of course- but all the children in Mod langs (German, French, Spanish, Bengali or Gujurati, etc)- would be doing the same topic at the same time. Let's say 'the family' - but it would be taught and then exploited very differently with lower ability, middle or talented groups- we would then all move to a different topic more or less at the same time, again at very different levef of detail, vocabulary, grammar and difficulty/sophistication as appropriate to the group and to some extent, individual child.