The decision to end restrictions is dangerous and premature, unethical and illogical.

Any thoughts about the Scottish approach, just announced? Some but by no means all restrictions eased on Monday and facemasks mandatory for "some time to come".

MayBee70

But we can start the economy slowly and carefully in a way that we can stop or slow down. Not just open up in a ‘it’s all over’ sort of way. Johnson is back tracking on that now but I fear it’s too late.

We have been opening up stage by stage since March, this last stage has been delayed by four weeks in order to allow more folks to be vaccinated.

I will keep a mask in my bag and if I feel uncomfortable I shall wear it.

But we can start the economy slowly and carefully in a way that we can stop or slow down. Not just open up in a ‘it’s all over’ sort of way. Johnson is back tracking on that now but I fear it’s too late.

I am quite surprised that the scientists say that there is no break yet in inflections and hospital admissions. The daily coronavirus update suggests the rise in cases is much sharper than the rise in hospitalisations or, indeed, deaths with COVID-19 on the death certificate. I appreciate that there is a lag between infections and deaths; but while today's numbers for England show a moderate rise in deaths, it is a tiny percentage of the rise in cases 4 weeks ago.

Of course, this could change but while we can get too optimistic, we can also get overly pessimistic too. If our vaccinations become ineffective, all bets are off.

If we keep stop-starting the economy, one day it may not start again. Government can make rules and give advice but not all people actually take it and I think the appetite for restrictions has waned. I am not saying this is a good thing or that I won't be using a mask but I suspect it is a reasonable reflection of how it is.

I’m afraid that the initial information about hand washing but saying the virus wasn’t airborne has stuck in the minds of some people and it suits them to continue to believe it.Even JVT last year said that mask wearing wasn’t effective. I was so relieved when mask wearing was made mandatory even though I don’t go anywhere. The carers that come to my neighbours (she’s very old and has Parkinson’s) house didn’t wear masks for a long time which really worried me. Mask wearing was starting to become part of our culture, though, and it’s ridiculous to put an end to that now.

Exactly, MaizieD.

I don't understand why so many people are failing to think about airborne transmission.

(Would shields between restaurant tables not give some protection, tho?)

growstuff

I agree with you Greeneyedgirl.

My hairdresser has just lost a customer (me). She told me she's going to stop wearing a mask after "freedom day", but will continue wiping down the seats, etc.

I'm a lot less bothered about picking something up from the clothes of a previous client than I am from her breathing all over me.

Been saying this for months now! The US Centre for Disease Control (CDC) backs this up.

Hygiene theatre is plastic facial visors that do not protect wearers from breathing in infected air or contaminating the people around them. It is single-use cutlery and disposable menus in restaurants and shields between tables. It is staff fastidiously cleaning communal touchpoints in pubs while maskless groups chant football songs at full volume. It is hazmat suit-wearing officials fumigating entire streets with disinfectant. It is gyms that require people to wipe down every piece of equipment they touch, but do not make them wear masks. It is quarantining your post by the front door and wiping down your groceries with bleach. All well-intentioned, but mostly ineffectual, gestures that make us feel safe, but do not keep us safe from the threat posed by Covid-19.

According to the CDC, the chance of contracting Covid-19 from a single infected surface is less than 1 in 10,000. And yet we remain obsessed with fomite transmission of Covid-19, as do our elected leaders. In June, a glove-wearing Boris Johnson was filmed wiping down a plastic chair, in a worrying indication of the prime minister’s lack of understanding. And when the G7 met in Cornwall, news cameras broadcast footage of hotel staff wiping down railings outside the hotel hosting the summit, in a bit of high-profile hygiene theatre.

Worth a read.

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jul/12/hygiene-theatre-how-excessive-cleaning-gives-us-a-false-sense-of-security

Curlygirl Apparently people are supposed to know who they are and give them extra space, etc. Errmm ... that'll work well. Are CEV people supposed to wear a big badge?

Originally, the advice was to speak to your GP - ahem, I'm sure GPs would love that, as if they don't have enough to do already treating people who are ill.

Has any thought been given to the 3.5 million (I think) of Clinically Extremely Vulnerable people who from July 19th will find their lives threatened by the lifting of all restrictions. That does not include people, including myself, who despite having had both vaccinations are on medication that reduces the effectiveness of the vaccine. Even though we can continue to be cautious, wearing masks etc, the fact that other people won’t is very worrying. How can you prevent other people standing close to you in a supermarket queue for example. If eating out will the current practice of spacing seating be continued or will we be faced with tables crowded together? Seems BJ has decided that he’s done his job of mismanaging Covid and has now handed over all responsibility to the public. The NHS struggles even at the best of times. How many hospitals even before Covid had zero waiting lists. Rising case numbers will make the current waiting lists even longer so how many more people will die not with Covid but because of it? The awful thing about this is that this plan is a gamble and the Govt are gambling with people’s lives.

I agree with you Greeneyedgirl.

My hairdresser has just lost a customer (me). She told me she's going to stop wearing a mask after "freedom day", but will continue wiping down the seats, etc.

I'm a lot less bothered about picking something up from the clothes of a previous client than I am from her breathing all over me.

To my amazement some still do not seem to understand how the virus is transmitted. At one restaurant, where I sat outside, I commented to the waitress about lack of ventilation inside, and how tricky to work there all day. She replied that it did get rather hot, and hadn’t a clue what I was on about. ?. In M&S till staff had no masks, but were behind screen at front, (when you pack at the side). Airborne viruses are not confine by a square of Perspex. I suppose even these meagre barriers will disappear next week.

Merci Jaxjacky, for me that is interesting.
Just in time for the school holidays when hundreds of French children travel alone by long distance trains to relatives or to colonies de vacances. No proof of jab, no visits. I have a feeling there will be a scramble on that front to get kids jabbed. No wonder Doctolib crashed.

Thank you for that postSaetana. I wondered why people why people were posting about under 12s when there is no question about them being vaccinated. 12-17 year olds are different.
Because it is being trialled and will inevitably/possibly be the next step. Other countries are going down that route.
This pandemic and vaccination programme calls us to consider all ages, all nationalities etc.

Ellianne
www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/12/france-mandates-covid-health-pass-for-restaurants-and-cafes

That of course is what I meant by “complete”

Over 12s and certainly over 16s need to be vaccinated to help prevent them getting long covid.

At present people suffer worse as they age, but no one can say if a mutation doesn’t occur with the reverse. We need as many as possible vaccinated to try to prevent the virus freely mutating.

Lin52

Whitewavemark2

Sparkling

We all know how its transmitted, just be careful. Normal life needs to resume, we have to live along side Covid.

Absolutely not! Mitigation must continue. Wait until vaccination is complete.

Vaccinations will never be complete, not in the whole population. The anti vaxxers, who are doing their damage, the ethnic minorities who won’t have it, the people who have been frightened by all the publicity about adverse reactions, although very rare are enough to stop some people having it. I do agree that restrictions should be kept in place for longer, and my family will still be observing them re hands face and back to online shopping for a while longer.

Vaccination doesn't need to be 100%. With the delta variant, it's estimated that it needs to be 85% for population aka herd immunity.

Take up is lower in people from ethnic backgrounds, but it's rising and many of them are vaccinated.

85% coverage of all over 12s is realistic and achievable. It just takes time (weeks) and the will.

Allsorts

I do not agree with your views Whitewave. We know how Covid is transmitted, we are vaccinated, we have to take the risks and get our lives back, not live in this alternative universe. It is so damaging to our younger people , they have lost the most, born the brunt it must stop. We should be thinking of them and getting the economy back so they can have what we took for granted for many, many years.

No, we should be vaccinating them, so they are fit and well enough to enjoy the fruits of the "economy".

Whitewavemark2

Sparkling

We all know how its transmitted, just be careful. Normal life needs to resume, we have to live along side Covid.

Absolutely not! Mitigation must continue. Wait until vaccination is complete.

Vaccinations will never be complete, not in the whole population. The anti vaxxers, who are doing their damage, the ethnic minorities who won’t have it, the people who have been frightened by all the publicity about adverse reactions, although very rare are enough to stop some people having it. I do agree that restrictions should be kept in place for longer, and my family will still be observing them re hands face and back to online shopping for a while longer.

I do not agree with your views Whitewave. We know how Covid is transmitted, we are vaccinated, we have to take the risks and get our lives back, not live in this alternative universe. It is so damaging to our younger people , they have lost the most, born the brunt it must stop. We should be thinking of them and getting the economy back so they can have what we took for granted for many, many years.

chrissy08

I don’t agree with vaccinating children at all with this.
Healthy eating & building an effective immune system would be much re beneficial.

I don't think so!

Nobody really knows how to "build up a healthy immune system", especially one capable of resisting coronavirus.

Thank you for that post Saetana. I wondered why people why people were posting about under 12s when there is no question about them being vaccinated. 12-17 year olds are different.

BTW I wondered about donating doses to other countries, but the problem seems to be that there are supply problems with Pfizer. It would make sense and be morally right to donate spare doses of AZ because it doesn't need ultra-cold storage, which many developing countries lack, and it's not the preferred vaccine for under 40s anyway.

No I haven't read this entire thread - I do not need to. Firstly there is NO vaccine that has been approved for children under 12. For those aged 12-17 then currenly only the Pfizer vaccine has been approved. Please stop spouting scare stories about vaccines and side effects - the vast majority of people either suffer none or only mild side effects. I did think a few months ago that maybe we should donate vaccines to other countries rather than vaccinating our teenagers. However, given young unvaccinated people are now the group mostly likely to catch covid, I do believe now that we should innoculate our teenagers against covid. We are in for the long haul here - there are no quick solutions.

I don’t agree with vaccinating children at all with this.
Healthy eating & building an effective immune system would be much re beneficial.

Wow, thanks, very interesting to see how that works.

He did say they were working towards 100% Ellianne children’s vaccinations start in September, including infants, there was a hint of mandatory. Doctolib, thé online booking system, crashed earlier with the requests.