Dr John Campbell and blood clots

I suppose we can all agree that this is one paper that doesn't seem to come down on one side or tbe other, and that the WHO, CDC etc are probably looking at a wider range of sources, being as how they are professionals and all.

Why do you think they're don't recommend aspirating in general, not just for Covid vaccines? Just to annoy Dr Campbell?

Should pragmatism be used as an excuse when something could be life threatening?

I'm not bothered about some pain to be honest.

I suppose, Alegrias1 we can all agree that the paper should really say there are no known benefits.

They concluded that IM vaccinations using the pragmatic approach were less painful and there were no benefits to following the standard approach.

Like I said above, this is not my area of expertise but several posters above who do have experience have posted knowledgeably. Let's just get on with it.

So it was less painful. But does that prove that aspirating the needle would definitely not prevent blood clots in a small amount of cases if the aspiration is done properly?

The perils of reading a paper when its not in your area of expertise....this extract is from the very same paper you quoted PippaZ. I'll be leaving it to the professionals.

A different approach to this issue was taken by Ipp et al. 2 through a survey where the actual practice of end users was evaluated. This survey established that 74% of respondents aspirated prior to IM vaccine administration. However, of these only 3% aspirated for the recommended 5–10 seconds; the remaining applied negative pressure for <5 seconds. The same group went on to conduct a randomized controlled trial in which they compared two injection techniques: the standard approach, which included aspiration for 5–10 seconds, and the pragmatic approach, which excluded aspiration entirely. They concluded that IM vaccinations using the pragmatic approach were less painful and there were no benefits to following the standard approach.

I think the problem is because the vaccination programme has been rolled out so quickly there weren’t enough really experienced people to do the vaccinating.

That is good to hear Casdon.

The needles and systems such as the one to take phials of blood (often seems to be enough to keep your local vampire going for quite a while I feel) seem to have greatly improved since my childhood and I am nowhere near your father's age. With a good operator, you hardly feel them.

Trials are starting now for an oral vaccine dose that would offer a much better option for children PippaZ. Aspiration is painful, and that will put many children and their parents off. I say this advisedly, my 91 year old father initially refused to have a covid vaccine, and has never had a flu vaccine, because of his childhood memories of big and painful needles when he was a child - my sister had to go with him to the Covid vaccination centre.

Won’t children have less muscle as well?

I've never said he's not entitled to use it. Of course he is. I always refer to him always as Dr Campbell because that's his name. I also know that his specialism is Nurse Education, though many others seem to disregard that.

My specialism isn't methods of vaccination so I won't be discussing aspiration.

If you have earned a doctorate you have every right to use it, especially if it is relevant to what you do. I think your implications are distasteful Alegrais.

There has been much inconclusive discussion on the subject but this is the most up to date medical paper I could find. It has been peer-reviewed and all sources seem properly referenced. This paragraph seemed most relevant to our conversation. It was published in 2017 so you may be able to find papers that supersede this one.

Aspiration prior to injection of medication through the IM route remains a part of most guidelines 4, 35, 38– 40. Nursing curricula and guidelines 4, 38, 39 clearly recommend aspiration as an essential step in IM injection technique. Guidelines originating in the UK recommend aspiration prior to IM injection of medications 35, as well as specifically as part of the Z-track technique of administering IM injections. Training curricula for community health workers in Nigeria recommend aspiration prior to IM, SC and intradermal [ID] injections 40.

This seems to be where we were before the Covid 19 vaccines. I can find nowhere that says this has changed. There may be reasons for the change in this instance; speed is probably one. However, this means the current vaccines are being given against previous directives.

We are where we are but it is the possibility of the blood clots that make the vaccination for younger people and children more questionable. No one is saying anything other than that this should be looked into and we should know why they are not moving to aspiration for these groups.

There's a difference between advocating something we can do for ourselves and undermining a government decision while setting yourself up as an authority on the subject.

I'm not saying we ignore him completely, we should just be aware that he's not in a unique position of special knowledge in all of this.

It wouldn’t surprise me if he hasn’t persuaded more people to wear masks and get vaccinated than a lot of other people have. He was advocating the wearing of masks when even JVT, who I do admire was following WHO guidelines and saying mask wearing was a waste of time. I’d need to look at the timeline but it wouldn’t surprise me to find that he was saying we should do testing and tracing when Chris Whitty decided it was a waste of time because the virus was already spreading in the community.

Anyone can have doubts about the WHO or any other group. But establishing ourselves as authorities who need to be listened to is something else. Other than undermining his subscribers' confidence in the medical authorities he disagrees with, what does his advocacy of aspiration, or Ivermectin, or anything else, actually accomplish?

So we shouldn’t eg question the WHO that have, quite frankly got quite a few things wrong thus far?

The aspiration is not a zero sum game though; as I understand it there are negative aspects to it to, not least that it is painful. I say again, I'm not a medic, but the actual risks of the blood clots is tiny and maybe more people would be put off by thinking it was going to be painful that thinking that blood clots are a problem.

Before anybody asks me to defend that, let me say just please don't ask me. People with actual knowledge and expertise in this, all over the world, have decided its not worth it. Some countries have decided otherwise, and that's their prerogative, but most have decided not to. So let's just get on with it. Things should be questioned, for sure, but frankly, not by unaffiliated people who have a popular YouTube channel.

Dr Campbell is sometimes right and sometimes wrong. But he does not represent any medical authority and no matter how good a Nurse Educator he is, questioning the authority of those who actually have to be accountable, and making people think there are questions to answer is, IMO, unacceptable.

But, given that we need people to have the vaccine and there is obviously a small risk from the AZ vaccine and the Pfizer one, should we not be doing everything possible to find out why there is a small risk and what can be done to eliminate that risk. All he’s saying regarding aspirating the needle is let’s eliminate that from our enquiry by doing it and seeing if it makes a difference. Surely we owe it to those people that have been affected by the problems. He was advocating the wearing of masks ages before the government mandated it. He said people could be asymptomatic ages before the PM realised it. When I was worried that the vaccines wouldn’t work it was DrJohn that kept me up to date with what was happening. And, if he does get something wrong he’ll be the first person to admit it.

I’m not Pammy but I like to put my oar in….

Dr Campbell does have a responsibility to monitor the comments on his videos. I had a quick look at they are heavily weighted towards the “don’t take the vaccine” kind of thing. While Dr Campbell clearly doesn’t agree with that, it would take seconds to turn off the ability to comment and just remove a channel for the deniers to spread their disinformation.

Dr Campbell has never claimed to be a medical doctor, certainly, but his use of the title “Dr” does suggest that he is using it to add credibility to his videos. He is a very good communicator, IMO, and explains things really well. But he does have some hobby horses – Ivermectin, and aspiration for instance, and when you look at some of the comments on this forum you can see that people think we should be following his ideas. Well I’m sorry, and this is where I’ll get unpopular, he’s an interpreter of research, not a researcher. I’ve seen him referred to on this forum as somebody who “knows more about infectious diseases than most”. That’s misrepresenting his field of knowledge, I’m afraid.

I would say that the last thing we need is a populiser of science telling people that there are things that the government should be doing when there is no justification for it. I heard him make a comment about UV light and the virus yesterday that I know for a fact isn’t true, so it makes me wonder about some of the other things he says, that are not in an area I know much about. IMO, he’s good to listen to when it comes to seeing the latest trends and figures explained, but not when it comes to proposing about new treatments.

growstuff

Pammy Which disinformation have you heard from John Campbell?

I'm not a regular follower of his YouTube channel, so maybe I've missed something. However, as far as I can tell, he has never been against vaccinations. I admit that I don't read the comments under his videos.

With all due respect to medical doctors, they aren't always right. I suspect they are sometimes too busy to keep up with all the latest developments. Sorry to say I've experienced this with GPs. On one occasion, a consultant had to write to my GP to enforce treatment, which the GP was denying me - nothing to do with over-zealous use of Google.

I started this thread because I was curious more than anything else. I know nothing about giving vaccines, but it does appear that Campbell isn't the only one asking questions.

I really would like a reply from Pammy. I have listened to DrJohns blogs since the start of last year and have found them informative and helpful. If someone is going to accuse him of fuelling the anti vacc movement etc I really feel they should give exact examples of anything in his blog that does that. Or information that is definitely incorrect. It’s important that those people more knowledgeable than him give those of us that are gullible enough to have faith in what he says that information. As for the comments on his blogs I don’t think he reads them anyway and neither do I. He’s been doing his blogs for many years and has developed a thick skin when it comes to internet trolls.

I find his videos very interesting. He obviously has a great deal of knowledge and is quick to say when he doesn't. He is used to teaching so communicates at a level most of us could understand. He is also quick to tell us this paper has only just been published and has not yet been peer reviewed. It will be and we can then make our minds up about what that says.

To me, it sounds very plausable. It has been acted on in other countries. Maybe it will be here. I would feel happier if they did this when we come to boosters. I cannot see any medical downside for not doing so.

Pammy Which disinformation have you heard from John Campbell?

I'm not a regular follower of his YouTube channel, so maybe I've missed something. However, as far as I can tell, he has never been against vaccinations. I admit that I don't read the comments under his videos.

With all due respect to medical doctors, they aren't always right. I suspect they are sometimes too busy to keep up with all the latest developments. Sorry to say I've experienced this with GPs. On one occasion, a consultant had to write to my GP to enforce treatment, which the GP was denying me - nothing to do with over-zealous use of Google.

I started this thread because I was curious more than anything else. I know nothing about giving vaccines, but it does appear that Campbell isn't the only one asking questions.

Pammy, this is the new paper which has yet to be peer reviewed:
www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.29.450356v1.abstract?%3Fcollection

The 2016 paper I think I'd have to listen again to know what to look for there.

I suggest that people that dismiss DrCampbell should check out his blogs from the start of 2020 when he warned people about what was happening in China and saying there was danger of a pandemic. He’s actually done more to reassure me pandemic wise over the past 18 months or so than anyone in government and most people on this forum. And, as I’ve said before, he puts links to everything so people can check it out for themselves. Why shouldn’t we be interested in what is happening in other countries given that it’s a worldwide pandemic which started in another country.