Should we ask over 60s to stay in?

Excellent post Monica and Iam64 I think you did the right thing under the circumstances. Blind obedience can be very dangerous as Monica points out. Nazi Germany told us that. Your sister’s mental health is crucial if she is to come through all this healthily, and given her recent loss, sisterly support is the most kind thing you can do for her. Is it possible you could form a bubble with her as she lives alone? We must never lose our humanity because of Covid. Never.

I think blind obedience to the law is frightening and dangerous. We all at sometime in our life make conscious considered decisions to 'bend' the law in some way. Perhaps to go over 70 on the motorway to get past a vehicle being driven erratically or dangerously.

I think the same thing applies to the COVID rules, we decided to break them during lockdown. Our daughter, who lives alone, became seriously ill, not COVID but no hospital admission because of COVID, we were very concerned about her being so ill and alone at home and decided to move in with her to take care of her, whatever the rules. As it happens the bubble regulations were introduced the day after we made the decision, and we made her our bubble and our homour was saved. I think it is a sign of a responsible and mature adult that they understand when the rules must be obeyed and when they can, with proper caution by flexed a bit.

You are fortunate MOnica, even more so because you recognise that.
I called to see my sister, who is under the same restriction we are and like me, is classed as clinically vulnerable. She was widowed a year ago. She isn't going out but decided not to follow the guidance to have no one in your house. During the first lockdown, her adult sons saw her only from the garden. This time, she is looking after her mental as well as physical health. I didn't visit as we were following the guidance on not driving. We agreed this week that as we are both being very careful, I could call for a cuppa.
I realise we oldies are more likely to strain the NHS and possibly leave our loved one's bereaved if we catch the virus. But we have to live without being over whelmed by anxiety

Our son and family live in a Tier 2 area, and we have cancelled all plans for half term visits. We are fortunate, that our DD, who is also the single person in our bubble, lives in an area with an even lower COVID rate and death rate than ours and is working from home, so we can safely see her as much as we like

MOnica, you're right of course. I'm in tier 3 but in an area with lower incidence than others. I am over 70 and 'clinically vulnerable'. I try to avoid busy super markets, get out and walk my dog twice a day. I haven't seen my children or grandchildren since the rate began to escalate. There are four different work places, two nurseries and two schools involved so we all agree the risks are too high. It's beyond description in its awfulness. But we all hope things will improve, its a question of how long. I hold out little hope for our usual family Christmas/birthdays

Anyway, the danger to over 60s depends where you live. The COVID rate in my area is very low indeed - and has been throughout the crisis. The chances of someone in any high risk group coming in contact with the disease in our area is very low indeed. So, someone over 60 or shielding would be very unlikely to get the disease if they went out to shop obeying all the rules about hygiene, masks and distance, nor are local services likely to be overwhelmed if one or two people over 60 did get the disease. Total COVID deaths in my area since they started counting is 125 and that figure has been unchanged for months.

This is a very different situation to someone of the same age and with medical conditions in a Tier 3 area.

I'm not against a bit of stick (twig), but there isn't any carrot, which is why apparently only about 20% of the people who are told to self-isolate comply.

growstuff

I honestly can't see it happening.

The government really should be ensuring that everybody who has been told to self-isolate by contact tracers and those returning from abroad does so, but it can't even do that.

I can't see it happening either growstuff, but then you see what is happening in Poland and you start to wonder.

I'm of the view that we should be supporting people to self isolate and quarantine, not enforcing it, but then I am a loony leftie . I think we have to use the carrot, not the stick, not because I'm soft but because I think that will be more successful.

I honestly can't see it happening.

The government really should be ensuring that everybody who has been told to self-isolate by contact tracers and those returning from abroad does so, but it can't even do that.

Marydoll

Elderly people can still be active and working, but the immune system diminishes with age for all of us, regardless of how fit we are.
As a result, elderly individuals do not respond to immune challenges as robustly as the young.

I feel it's a personal decision, whether you stay in or not. However, we should consider the burden on the NHS and our families if we become ill.

Good post marydoll and we are doing the same here.
Is life more boring? Yes, but so what, we are protecting ourselves and the NHS and others by doing this.

Oh, I'm the same suzie and BlueSky. But I'm not staying indoors completely and having my shopping delivered by the Army.... (That said, I'm not over 70, or even 60 )

For me, the difference would come if the government told me to stay indoors, like they did before. I read about the instruction to over seventies in Poland, and I'm trying to imagine the government trying to impose something similar here.

It would be phrased as "Stay inside, protect the NHS", when really it would be "stay inside because we're too incompetent to come up with anything else"

Exactly Suzie!

But I’m not staying in ( or more accurately not going out at pre-pandemic levels) to save the NHS but because I don’t want to catch Covid. It’s quite a simple decision. I’d be acting exactly the same even if there were a magical increase in NHS capacity.

At this stage in the pandemic its unacceptable to ask any group to stay at home, especially if its based on age. When all this started, it was completely out of the blue and we needed to take extreme measures, which is why we all needed to stay home as much as possible. But we have had 8 months to devise a method of managing outbreaks, and have clearly failed miserably. The UK can't track cases properly, we can't provide adequate support for people who can't isolate because of their circumstances and we are encouraged to demonise groups we see as breaking the rules.

The only reasons we are being asked to stay indoors is to limit the impact on the NHS. We shouldn't delude ourselves that the government cares whether we individually catch this disease, their objective is to keep numbers within what a cash starved NHS can manage. As a money grabbing leftie, I'd quite like to see adequate funding for the NHS to manage this crisis properly, and a working T&T system.

Please be aware I'm not advocating lifting all the rules, not at all, but confining people to their homes because of governmental inadequacies in just not on.

People we know caught it from the grandchildren they were looking after. Luckily in a mild form.

Exactly BlueSky, those of us who were clinically vulnerable and advised to isolate in March, remain clinically vulnerable. Yet, we are to return to work, providing it's covid safe. How one young relative who works in hospitality achieves that I'm unsure.
I previously did one full day plus extras in looking after grandchildren. I'm back to not seeing them because we're teir 3, they're at school, parents at work so the risks seem too high. I miss my family so much and realise its v tough for them juggling work without our help. Tough times

Iam64

Poland has ordered its over 70's to stay in because the virus rates are increasing.

I was told about this yesterday, by my colleague who lives just outside Warsaw. She said that their over 70s have been discouraged from going out, for anything other than emergencies, for several weeks now. However, they're not to leave their homes at all now and that army personnel will deliver food supplies to them if they have no family.

Ordered to stay in in Poland? Well that wouldn’t work in the UK! What makes me laugh is that if you are looking after your grandchildren you can carry on doing that even if you are over 60 or 70!

Poland has ordered its over 70's to stay in because the virus rates are increasing.

The tragedy was that those in care homes, who feel imprisoned, were denied NHS care during the last lockdown. Certain CCGs wanted them all to sign DNRs (fair enough if meaning CPR only) but this was taken to mean that they gave up their right to be treated in hospital, they were just left to die in their care homes. I cannot begin to imagine what it must be like to be kept locked in, unable to see your loved ones, and knowing that you had nothing left to live for.

Elderly people can still be active and working, but the immune system diminishes with age for all of us, regardless of how fit we are.
As a result, elderly individuals do not respond to immune challenges as robustly as the young.

I feel it's a personal decision, whether you stay in or not. However, we should consider the burden on the NHS and our families if we become ill.

No. We are almost 70 and still active.We worked until we were 65. No intention of locking ourselves away. Both cancer sufferers and after two years of treatment no intention of hiding away at home. Life is too short. All life is a risk. We will take our chances and are perectly capable of making our own decisions.

It is an extremely lonely life and sometimes I think, is this all worth it? Should I risk my life for a hug.
My year old grand daughter had been shielding too, so we were a bubble.
Since she started school ten weeks ago, I haven't seen her, nor had a hug. My son is afraid she will pick Covid up at school and pass Covid to me. My heart is breaking and I'm aware that others feel the same.

As predicted, I received the Shielding text message tonight , advising me of the proposed 5 tier system in Scotland and referring me to the shielding website.
The advice is not as draconian as previously. However, as I'm immunosuppressed, I won't really be going anywhere soon.

Thank you B9.
She keeps saying that everyone says that she has to be patient.
And then she says that she doesn't know what she is waiting for (which is so true for all of us, but especially those in her situation).
I honestly don't know what I can do for her. She is my mother's mom, and my mom died when she was only 49.
It's a nightmare

Fanny I am so sorry for what you, and many thousands of others are going through. These are loved family members literally dying of loneliness, and no one seems to care a jot about their suffering as long as they are 'protected' from covid-19. There will be many like the doughty 83 year old yesterday who 'don't give a sod' about their risk of getting the disease, they just want to see their families for their remaining few months, or even years of life, which is what quality of life years is all about.