NHS staff can refuse to treat C19 patients if they do not have the correct PPE

I could be wrong but my understanding was that these companies were selling on behalf of PHE and therefore could not supply in Scotland - and that we have our own suppliers paddyanne?

A careworker in a home 2 miles from me died at the weekend with CV .Can you inagine how her family feels reading/hearing this or Ms Adams reply that Scotland should have different sources .These were the sources we have used for a long time why now is the english NHS deemed more important? Still better together ?

Date: April 13, 2020Author: johnrobertson834 6 Comments

Sourced by Clydebuilt our Investigative Radio Correspondent

On Morning with Kay Adams at 09.40 this morning we heard from Donald Macaskill, CEO Scottish Care. He stunned Kaye and the listeners with this:

‘We are facing an additional problem and that is that the care home sector and the care sector had traditionally ordered PPE from various sources. The four largest companies in the UK [sic] last week said they were not sending to Scotland and their priority was going to be England NHS and then English social care providers so within two or three days we’ve had a massive dry-up of procurement into Scotland and that’s had an impact, a really serious impact on our care homes and home care.’

Indeed.

Good. I'm pleased they have been given tis advice. I do hope that they are supplied with enough PPE but I don't think it will happen soon unfortunately.

Well that's a result then.

I understand perfectly what you said about perspective in response to paddyanne and I’m well aware that you don’t believe that the truth from the BMA et al is absolute.

SirChenjin
Crikey you seem to have chucked all my individual words into a bag and picked one or two out at random with no context!
My original use of the word 'perspective' was in reply to Paddyanne's comment about whether she believed the NHS or Hancock /Patel. Truth isn't absolute in that context, there are truths on both sides in my opinion
In your haste to castigate, you have totally misconstrued my thoughts on the RCM guidance and position statement. This is clear but they have not gone far enough to help in the ethical dilemma of putting one's own safety before the urgent and compelling needs of another. That part requires almost a military mindset. A nurse was speaking of exactly this on TV yesterday, saying how difficult it is to see a patient collapsed or vomiting but to have to don cumbersome PPE first before rushing to their aid. I really can't put it more clearly than that.

I agree ,but why go in and possibly carry the virus around.

It may be counter intuitive to some but it’s not a perspective, it’s a right, and there’s a vast difference. I’m glad to see that the RCN is very clear in their stance so that the potential for it simply to come down to perspective is removed. My DD is 20 and will start on the frontline this week - she will be following that RCN guidance and it will not be up one person’s perspective to decide whether she continues in an unsafe environment without the correct PPE or not. I will absolutely support that and no health or care worker should be castigated for having a different ‘perspective’ and not following RCN guidelines.

Individuals in the community where I live are sitting at home sewing scrubs, scrub's bags and headbands for the local hospital. I can't sew, but I made a donation to fund the materials so I do know it's happening.

It's like a cottage industry has been started to provide what the government failed to plan for and it's all rather shameful after a working party in 2016 warned the Government to be prepared for such an occurrence.

SirChenjin

" There is no debate to be had, no questioning of perspective "
It would be rather pointless to have a forum where that is the premise.
I agree with Pikachu in her comment, but the massive dilemma that exists for nursing and medical staff is that to NOT immediately rush to help another human being is totally counter intuitive and requires a whole other thinking process. Whether PPE is in short or plentiful supply, there is still the time factor in putting it on correctly. In the current unprecedented situation it is vital that health workers DON'T go into a situation that puts their life at risk.

I'm certain some workers in the US refused to treat patients with covid-19 because of the risks involved- Period-

Others certainly did due to shift stacking and lack of equipment-

The majority showed up regardless-

Not what Paddyanne believes Granny - what staff across the NHS and the care sector are telling us. There is no debate to be had, no questioning of perspective - it’s as Pikachu rightly says.

Of course they shouldn't Pikachu - and it doesn't matter where they are in the country.

At the start of the pandemic Germany had almost five times as many ventilators per capita as the UK. Causation is not the same as correlation, but Germany's lower death rate needs to be investigated - as does Ireland's. Ireland and the UK had almost the same number of ventilators per capita, but has a significantly lower death rate.

I'm not sure whether Hancock just says what he's told to say or whether he makes things up on the spot when faced with awkward questions. I was in the same room as him at a hustings before the last election. He was even worse than he appears on TV. He reminded me of a naughty teenager who lied because he's been caught out doing something wrong and then dug himself in even deeper when his lies were challenged. I have a smidgeon of sympathy for him because I think he's been set up as a fall guy.

Nurses, doctors and all vulnerable NHS staff should not be asked to work with inadequate protection. End of.

Where's your source that PPE supply is OK?

It could be that ventilator supply seems adequate because the most seriously ill aren't being offered ventilators, but left to take their chances on an ordinary ward or at home/in a care home.

Look at the NHS Covid-19 treatment chart I posted on another thread. If you're over 70, have an existing condition, are unfit and are male, you're unlikely ever to make it to a ventilator.

No, I didn't suggest that.
I was responding to Paddyanne who spoke of what she believes.

Surely you’re not suggesting that the many staff across the NHS and the BMA and the RCN aren’t to be believed.

Paddyanne Our death toll is just as shocking as Italy's and I'm sure no one is glossing over either. Ventilator capacity so far seems to be adequate. Granted, PPE has been a logistical nightmare world wide and specification has been clarified and upgraded in this country. Reports of supply seem okay in some areas and definitely not in others which raises the question of blocks in local procurement. I don't think it's a question of believing one perspective over another. In times of crisis all we can ask of anyone, in any walk of life, is that they do the absolute best they can.

So many of the problems occurring are logistical- But many other problems are ethical and involve safety and risk- And sadly, some involve prejudice -

My nephew is an EMT on the east coast just outside of NYC- Even with enough PPE, 2 of his members died- One 24 with underlying conditions, the other 33 physically fit-

My niece is a 911 dispatcher just outside of DC- Her Aunt, in the funeral industry, contracted the virus-

This isn't a war- These are citizens, not in the military- And yet ..

Grannylaine weren't we all aghast at Italy's death roll just two weeks ago? Ours is higher now and its being glossed over .Its shocking and the politicians need to either get the equipment needed or get out an dlet someone do the job who can get it.There were ventilatore ready and available but Boris had to give his mate the contract!!! The company had neer made them before ...HOW is that acceptable ? Sme with PPE they say its available then the staff say they cant get it ..I know who I believe and its not Hancock and Pritel

How ironic.

It's not quite that straightforward but there has always been a protocol where if giving care becomes unsafe for whatever reason, there is a process to follow to escalate concern. The RCMs position statement just reiterates that. Any individual worker has a responsibility to protect themselves and the patients they care for. The general public seems to be getting quite hysterical about the whole situation with a lot of ill-judged comments. It wouldn't hurt to just pause and consider what HAS been achieved: plenty of capacity for ICU beds and no patients seen lying on floors in corridors. Until we are through the other side of this, we will have no idea how well the strategies are working. Its all too easy for those with the benefit of hindsight and no accountability whatsoever, to sit on their comfortable sofas and spout criticism