It's not always that easy

Well I have choice but to shop for my dad and a few of his very elderly neighbours. Also my DD and her baby with no transport and my DH who is not well .

Good for those who have huge fridge freezers and plenty stuff to see them through.

The country should have been in lockdown from the word go, meaning that everything should have come to a halt just like Boris is " trying " to do now.

China managed with their millions which halted a catastrophe, so just why didn't we ? Planes were landing left,right and centre with people from infected areas. I give up !

Are there any cases in Russia btw, a cold area where this virus thrives, supposedly ? If not, why not ?

More and more local groups are being set up where volunteers will do essential shopping, fetch prescriptions etc for neighbours. In our small town every street has been covered so nobody vulnerable should need to go out. How long this will work will depend on these younger people staying healthy.
The government has also announced help schemes through local councils.
My daughter is self isolating for two weeks as her son has a cough. He seems well enough so it is hopefully not Coronavirus. If only they could be tested, she would be free to help too.

The difficulty is when one person's freedom to do what they think best - ignore the requests for social distancing during this crisis, impinges on someone elses freedom to not be put in danger of their health and life as a result.

Exactly Genevieve489 some of us have no choice but to make an infrequent trip to the super market. Not daily and not stopping for coffee etc.

My DH and I are both over 70. Our sons live 200 miles away. It worries me that we've got to go out to get food, but we really have little choice. All the delivery slots from supermarkets are booked solid and when we went to the village store on Friday the shelves were mostly empty. I hope the supermarkets will be able to sort out priority deliveries for older people so we don't need to go out, but I understand how difficult it must be.

That is the trouble with free will - it is a basic right and everyone wants it, but it inevitably includes the freedom of other people as well. Imposing someone else's decision in a time of crisis removes some of that free will - which makes sense when a certain action on everyone's part is essential, but sets a precedent which it is possible will be picked up at a different time by those who want power for its own sake.

Well said, elegran.

Since I wrote my post upthread, I've come across commentators in the US and the UK talking about the same dichotomy, much more lucidly than me, I might add.

And yes, eternal vigilance.

It is a saying that "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."

If people are to keep their freedom, they have to be constantly aware of just how much danger they are putting themselves (and other people) into. They need to decide, of their own free will, not to exercise their right to do what they want to, when and where they want to, if it is likely to cause them or other people to become ill or worse, or to make others feel obliged to put themselves in danger to rescue them from the results of their lack of caution.

Not to do this is selfish and antisocial - it is not a question of yielding feebly to someone else's edicts, but of understanding the situation and acting responsibly. Unfortunately the understanding and the will to act on it is sometimes faulty. Inevitably, some people may have to be forced to act reponsibly. Let us hope that does not lead permanently to a repressive society.

Gagajo, I accept your concerns, but the government has told us what they want us to do and I am doing what they say - that is social distancing. We are going out once a week to food shop in a supermarket during the time set aside for those over 70, which in my case means 7.30 in the morning when the store is as clean as it can be.

You may feel a need to gold plate these restrictions - a very British reaction. But I will not, unless the government advises me to.

Gagajo if all you family are under 55 and your elderly neighbour is probably over 70 and had been to the supermarket, presumably to buy food which he needs as well as a paper and coffee, instead of being horrified and disgusted why didn't/doesn't your daughter, who must be quite young, ask if he needs any help or ask if he has enough food in? As a matter of interest, how is all your comparatively young family, getting its food? If it is online (lucky person to get a slot) why don't you ask him if he wants to add anything to your list. Or have you been panic buying and stockpiling? We have to help each other. Not point fingers and condem.

Gagajo, if we ALL stay in as you say, how are we meant to get our food? Online sites don't have any slots available for weeks, personally I have reasonable supply available, but some people literally live hand to mouth. I do have family and neighbours who can shop for us, but they have to go out to do so.

Well said Gagajo, absolutely agree with you .

"The greater good" isn't a popular concept! It's ironic really because we've heard so much about the "will of the people" over the last few years.

I agree that we have to accept some curtailment of freedom for the greater good at the moment, tweedle. And, yes, mountain rescue teams will go out. Philosophically speaking they do not actually have to but personally and morally speaking they must because otherwise they'd never have volunteered.

Baggs I do understand your feelings about liberty and, on the whole, agree with you but, if someone uses their freedom to walk up Snowden, or anywhere else for that matter, and is injured, the mountain rescue team will come out regardless. We are in extraordinary times and, perhaps, should accept a curtailment of liberty for the greater good.

I get what you're saying, lizbethann.

I feel the dichotomy between the absolute preciousness of liberty and the need for a clamp down, close down, lock down. I read about members of a mountain rescue team pleading that people don't go up mountains because if they have to be rescued and one of the rescue team becomes infected with the virus, the whole team will have to self-isolate/quarantine.

I fully understand the worry of the mountain rescue team.

At the same time I feel that people's freedom to walk in the mountains, as socially distant as is possible, should not depend on there being someone to rescue them if they get into a fix. I think that, as a society, we have forgotten how to allow people to take risks for which no-one else is responsible.

I'll probably get pounced on as a monster for trying to explain such thoughts and I daresay I've done it very badly but the thoughts are there. There is a dichotomy between freedom and responsibility and it is not always easy and straightforward.

No they are not Mapleleaf. Snowden was swamped yesterday and it was impossible for people to keep their distance from each other. The National Trust has closed all their parks and gardens for the same reason.

It seems as though as many places are closed people feel they have to go somewhere!

The seafront is packed where we are today. People of all ages and eating chips, ice creams etc. I'm not sure if they are all visitors but the local community pages are full of residents complaining and getting angry.

It doesn't really matter if they are over 70 or not, does it? No one in MY house over 55 but we are isolating. Totally. It's the only way to stop it.

I saw my neighbour today. No, I don't know if he's over 70 but he's retired, grey haired and elderly. He was returning from the shops with a newspaper and a coffee. He'd been into the local coffee shop and the local supermarket.

My daughter pointed him out to me in horror.

We ALL need to stay in. Whatever our age. It isn't just about us getting ill, it's about us infecting others too.

My concern at the moment are the number of people (not necessarily the over 70’s either), heading off to the coast or country side in their droves. Do they think they are immune to this virus, or not carriers who might get bring it to others? I know it’s difficult - the bright sunny weather is tempting, and in normal times people would take adavantage and flock to these places. I ask myself, though, are these people being wise, fair or sensible in doing it now?

How do your daughters know the age of the older people they see in the street. Do they walk up and ask them?

Just because someone is white haired and has a lined face it doesn't mean that they are over 70. Several people have expressed surprise when DH & I have said we are in quarantine, because we do not match their stereotypes of how people in their late 70s should look.

Challenge them to prove that the people they have seen were over 70

V3ra That's very good. I have been calling round to the residents who live alone, but from Monday I won't be doing that unless it is absolutely necessary.

Salsaqueen my Dad (89) lives in an extra care apartment in the grounds of a nursing home.
He's been self-isolating for a week since the over 70s were told to.
He's had a sore throat so the carers checked his temperature (36c).
They call on him each morning and bring him a hot dinner every day.
They gave him a loaf of bread from the nursing home kitchen as he was running out.
They collected his prescription from the local pharmacy.
He's been for a walk around the garden since he's been feeling better.
I am so impressed with the level of support he's getting.
We've dropped some paracetamol into his letter box and left eggs outside.
It's tough as he's naturally sociable and loves his coffee shops but I keep stressing he must stay put!

This won't go anywhere.