Coronavirus - are older people being treated as expendable?

anniezzz......how about forget about political point scoring for five minutes?
There will be far more than 50 ventilators in the NHS in the UK, it’s frankly ridiculous to say so.Each hospital will have several, think how many hospitals there are!

Dinha and the relevance to the UK by citing what you think goes on in Italy is...?

Any choice is unlikely to be between elderly person and young mother. It will be between elderly person with heart problems and diabetes and younger person also with disabilities.

All I want is to be spoken to as an adult and not patronised and my children told to keep an eye on us and check we are alright. Of course anyone frail and disabled, especially with poor mental powers, needs to be checked on, but that applies regardless of age.

Many older people, even in their 80s and 90s are more than capable of coping with this crisis, modern life etc etc. Of course families will be in touch, in the day to day, week on week basis that they always are. But I am in command of every aspect of my life and do not intened to be talked down to, or even worse, talked over.

Lara

We've been contacted by some media channels wanting to know how you feel about this? Any thoughts?
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Please tell us which media channels.

I haven’t read all the thread but I think it’s the reverse! Old people are being told to be especially careful!

I hope we are not expendable but if they had to choose between my daughter and me I would want them to choose her.

They have great nights out in restaurants as a complete family and the older cousins look after the younger ones - and we have seen it where everyone except the oldest change seats so they get to chat to everyone.
Which part are you hoping to move to Anniezzzz?

I am a member of several groups concerned with moving to France which is what we are planning. Over and over again one reads of the excellent healthcare and the helpfulness and care that stretches through French society. I find it very shocking how selfish and uncaring British society has become, that's going to upset some but it's what I feel and this virus is making it clear that it's the usual British dog eat dog coming into play.

Welshwife, I love it when I'm in France and one sees the multigenerational affection and civility in France. Young people speak politely to adults, they don't sulk and fold their arms and look bored. The French have got it right, I can't wait, hope the virus spares me.

Last year, a friend's husband went into hospital with COPD breathing difficulties. He was put on oxygen and she was told 'end of life care'. Obviously shocked, when she asked about a breathing machine, they said 'We won't put him on one, as we feel he won't recover to the extent of being able to come off it again'.

It is interesting the attitude to older people in different countries. Here in France you do get the same treatment whatever the age although with chemo the amount and type is dependant on age. - over 80 or 90.
Friends of mine were in a cubicle in the local a+e dept and they heard the old lady in the next bay. The Dr told her they intended to give her a new hip as in a fall she had broken hers. She said to the Dr did he realise how old she was - yes he said 102 but this will give you a much better quality of life!
People including youngsters and teenagers are nice to older people and have no problem in engaging in conversation with them.

The NHS is allowed to be ageist - as it offers treatment 'appropriate' to age and medical condition. Likely outcomes have to be considered when there is a shortage of equipment. Obviously, priority will be given to those with the best chance of recovery. There is no disputing that. It's just a shame that, for the last decade, underfunding and cutbacks have been tolerated, even voted for.

Greymar, that made me cry.

I don't think we should go down the road of judging people's value in terms of economic (or community) contribution.

In all but subsistence societies, there surely comes a point at which people have paid in long enough, and can decide to do whatever they like in their twilight years, whether or not it is considered valuable (who is to judge that anyway?).

It is very dangerous to measure anyone's value, whatever metrics are used, as that leaves us all vulnerable to being considered expendable.

Lemongrove (just returned from shopping)

My point was that the over 60s in Italy are not being put on a ventilator. There is a greater percentage of sick people in Italy and the number of deaths because they have a greater percentage of elderly people than the rest of Europe. The latest figures are total number of infections - 11513 and number of deaths 1016. What I haven't found are the age ranges.

Finally, I regret to say that it wasn't fake news.

Gaga, you are not disposable. We need your input here.

I do get the impression old people are being seen as expendable yes.

It is awfully depressing, especially as many older people are still very valuable to the economy and the community. How many pensioners offer unpaid childcare and do voluntary work for example?

We;ve just cancelled my MIL's birthday dinner ,her GP advised her to accept that there will be many other people in the venue and she has no way of knowing whether they have been in contact with the virus,so she shouldn't take the risk

.Shes fine about it she can have her birthday later in the year.OH and I will take a buffet lunch and birthday cake over to her for her and a couple of friends so she has company that she does know haven't been out of the country or had contact with anyone who has (as far as possible) She's 85 but we dont want to lose her for as long as possible

And PFIs, beloved of New Labour Anniezzz.
We are still paying the price.

Although, interestingly enough, there are no PFIs in Wales yet Wales has the fewest number of ICU beds per capita than anywhere in the UK.

Yes silverlining (love your username!), shocking isn't it. Tory austerity and an NHS deprived of income over the last ten years and what do we find?

Re beds do we all know that we, ie the UK is almost at the bottom of the list of numbers of intensive beds available in 35 European countries? That’s pretty appalling but no real surprise. Check it for yourselves.

If it had to be a choice between me and younger members of the family I would want them to have the care but I don't think it should be a choice.

I think there is already an element of that in the NHS anyway as yesterday DH was told by a GP that he was lucky to have been referred to a specialist at his age! A few years ago a family friend in NL had open heart surgery at the age of 98, wouldn't happen here.

This morning I saw a clip of Kate Burley attacking R S (Chancellor) for not being tested. I suspect that created a lot of panic and people using up NHS resources demanding test when they didn't need them. I think we should all try to act rationally and let the NHS do its job. Perhaps they should be proactive about contacting those who are 'vulnerable'? If they did and it became known perhaps other would be reassured?

That should be dispensable of course!

Whingeing?? In Italy and other EU countries I note that politicians are asking people to care for each other and care for the vulnerable. Once some are seen as lesser and indispensable we are morally lost.

I think that the government response that the country should 'take it on the chin' as expressed by Johnson shows a complete lack of regard to the consequences which are likely to be a massive wave of infection overwhelming the health services. The responses should be managed and many health experts are commenting on the lack of action, information and guidance. Is this because the elderly and vulnerable are more likely to be adversely affected? It seems likely as the main concern is that business keeps running albeit with a reduced workforce.

I d not get the feeling we are being written off. Someone said on the radio, we are in a war time front line situation; where choices have to be made we will choose the person most likely to survivie.

It does not inevitably follow that that person will be elderly or infirm, although that is likely. I think we should stop just whinging and instead make an active demand for it to be shown that where choices have to be made it is genuinely the one most likely to survive who gets the ventilator and not just the youngest. Better one elderly person is retuned to normal life rather than elderly person as well as one young person dies, because the preference was for the yopunger person.

I support my daughter and grandson financially. Despite that, he needs his mum more than me. They'd be devastated to lose me, but better me than mum.