From sinner to saint, quite a transformation.

It may be true that I might have bought a cheap house if I'd been offered one, but that wouldn't make it a sensible policy. It was done to buy votes. At one time a third of the population lived in council houses, with affordable rents and the threat of eviction if people were a public nuisance.

Now the number of people able to live in securely tenanted houses is tiny, and they are no longer owned by councils, but housing associations who tend not to care if tenants make life difficult for their neighbours.

Yes, some tenants had paid a lot of rent, but in the time they did they had a secure roof over their heads and regular repairs. If they could afford to buy a house they should, IMO, have bought one on the open market like others did. Taking a house out of public ownership was wrong.

I don't blame individuals for doing it, although I do blame those who bought their parents' houses at huge discounts, and even more so if they then rented them to tenants who would once have qualified for the same house on a social rent. Someone on a tight budget who is suddenly offered the chance to own something they could never have been able to buy at full price would have to be fairly sainted to turn it down, but I do blame Thatcher for the policy. It was a blatant appeal to greed and self-interest - values which permeated her policies and time in office. See also the sale of public utilities.

The policy didn't benefit all the takers, though. I know someone who bought her council house at full discount, but even so couldn't afford to pay for the repairs that her neighbours got free, as she suddenly had a mortgage that was subject to changes in interest rates, and her circumstances changed for the worse. I remember when the people around her all got new kitchens, and hers was tatty and broken. She lived in fear of being unable to pay the mortgage and being evicted, which wouldn't have happened if she'd stayed a tenant, as benefits would have picked up the tab. The whole shebang was a cynical attempt to buy votes, and it worked.

I would struggle to forgive Thatcher, but largely because I don't think she seemed capable of the sort of reflection that would show her what she had done to people and regret it. The fourth generation of unemployed who would once have had a steady job in a traditional industry. The people who turned to drugs as a result of having no hope of a decent life because she ruthlessly closed whole industries. The miners who were criminalised for driving to a different area during the 1984 strike, or who were picked off picket lines and falsely accused of violence, so never worked again. The older ones (ie over 40) who never worked again anyway, and their wives and families whose lives were ruined.

But on the whole I do believe that those who regret what they've done and decide to do better are able to do so. Surely most of us have done things we have come to regret and wish we'd done differently. Every saint has a past, and every sinner has a future, as they say.

25Avalon

If you lived ina council house and had paid rent for years, if someone came along and offered you to buy it at a fraction of the market price, you’d jump at it if you could. Having said that you may well have more than paid for that house already in rent. It gave you the right to buy your own home and not have to face the Council being able to move you out as circumstances changed. Now everyone wants to own their own house and the cry is for affordable housing, but the problem is wages have not kept pace with housing costs so the differential is that much bigger.

I wouldn't blame anyone for opting to buy their council house if given the chance.
... but Councils were blocked from replacing the homes they sold - government would not allow them to use the receipts to build new housing, with the inevitable result that there was less housing for rent - and people still needed to rent.
And then, there were borrowing limits placed on Councils, too.
So there were winners, but definitely losers.
But of course, not many people bought properties in those ugly concrete tower blocks I don't think. They became sink estates for the have-nots.

If you lived ina council house and had paid rent for years, if someone came along and offered you to buy it at a fraction of the market price, you’d jump at it if you could. Having said that you may well have more than paid for that house already in rent. It gave you the right to buy your own home and not have to face the Council being able to move you out as circumstances changed. Now everyone wants to own their own house and the cry is for affordable housing, but the problem is wages have not kept pace with housing costs so the differential is that much bigger.

Selling off council housing stock was the least of what she did, though bad enough .... destroying industries and communities, peddling inappropriate "grocer's daughter" economics, rejecting co-operation and caring in favour of individualism, espousing the idea that profit is everything and basing every policy on this, selling off our service industries and privatising everything in sight (even social care for goodness' sake), fragmenting our society in a way that I do not think will ever mend .... can she be forgiven? Absolutely not.

As a Christian I am very glad that the judging of people and their level of repentance is not in my remit. I leave that up to Him and try to concern myself with my own life.

Sago

Luckygirl3

Thatcher for me was an evil destructive force, the negative repercussions of which we are still suffering. I am all for forgiveness, but not in this instance. Nor for her followers. Nothing would have made her a saint.

Her great legacy to sell off all our council housing and not replace it.

The result a load of dodgy landlords and substandard accommodation.

Successive governments also did sod all.
IIRC the Labour govt. had 13 years in which to repeal or amend that law, but they didn’t.
Could that possibly be because they thought it would lose them votes?

Luckygirl3

Thatcher for me was an evil destructive force, the negative repercussions of which we are still suffering. I am all for forgiveness, but not in this instance. Nor for her followers. Nothing would have made her a saint.

Her great legacy to sell off all our council housing and not replace it.

The result a load of dodgy landlords and substandard accommodation.

Thatcher for me was an evil destructive force, the negative repercussions of which we are still suffering. I am all for forgiveness, but not in this instance. Nor for her followers. Nothing would have made her a saint.

Essexgirl145

That's what I don't like about Christianity.........do whatever and God will forgive you, just like that.

Well if you believe in a “god”, that’s exactly why he forgives those who truly repent and try to live better lives, because his followers pray to him for forgiveness.

As Oscar Wilde said “Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.” Wise words.

AuntieE

As I do not live in the UK I have no idea at all about the person spoken of in the original post.

But yes, peoplle can change, if they want to, and if they realise that their former w ay of life has been wrong in any way.

Most of us never make the attempt, believing that we do not need to.

Those who feel the need to change, may be able to do so, if they have the requisite strength of character, and if at least one other person genuinily supports them in their choice and their efforts to change.

Some suceed, others as changing yourself is hard work, do not.

If we look at saints in the religious sense, St Francis of Assisi was the kind of young man no parent could be proud of, but a sudden change of heart occured in him, and he suceeded in transforming himself from what today we would call a jet-setter to a person devoted to living as humbly and cheaply as possible in order to help others.

Igatius of Loyola went from being a soldier who did not concern himself over much with thoughts of God, or his own soul, to become a devout founder of a new order of priests - the Society of Jesus.

Women too, have left a life of wealth and comfort, St. Claire of Assisi being one of them to serve God and her fellow humans in poverty.

So, yes sinners can become saints.

Yes Ignatius Loyola was a vain, womanising soldier.

A serious injury led to his incarceration, it took a lot of surgery and many months to recover.

During this period he found Christ.

It’s interesting how adversity and time often lead us to God.

He believed to be a true soldier of God you should have no vanity.

He left a great legacy to this world, one that so many millions of people have benefited from through the Jesuits.

Perhaps Aitken was inspired by this story.

Mr Aitken was my MP at the time, and on the rare occasion when our paths crossed, he seemed entitled and arrogant to me.
Years later, after his time in prison, he spoke to a local literary group.
My impression was that the man had not changed in his presentation.
However, he did speak about his experiences as a prison chaplain, so his life certainly is very different, now, and perhaps reflects an inner change.

Saul of Tarsus who repented and became Paul after his enlightenment on the Road to Damascus. I guess anyone can repent and reform if they are genuine. John Profumo turned to goodly works after his release from prison.

Essexgirl145

That's what I don't like about Christianity.........do whatever and God will forgive you, just like that.

It’s not just like that!

It requires more effort.

Only Tommy Cooper used that phrase.

As I do not live in the UK I have no idea at all about the person spoken of in the original post.

But yes, peoplle can change, if they want to, and if they realise that their former w ay of life has been wrong in any way.

Most of us never make the attempt, believing that we do not need to.

Those who feel the need to change, may be able to do so, if they have the requisite strength of character, and if at least one other person genuinily supports them in their choice and their efforts to change.

Some suceed, others as changing yourself is hard work, do not.

If we look at saints in the religious sense, St Francis of Assisi was the kind of young man no parent could be proud of, but a sudden change of heart occured in him, and he suceeded in transforming himself from what today we would call a jet-setter to a person devoted to living as humbly and cheaply as possible in order to help others.

Igatius of Loyola went from being a soldier who did not concern himself over much with thoughts of God, or his own soul, to become a devout founder of a new order of priests - the Society of Jesus.

Women too, have left a life of wealth and comfort, St. Claire of Assisi being one of them to serve God and her fellow humans in poverty.

So, yes sinners can become saints.

Yes I believe you can go from sinner, through learning and reflection to remorse, reformed behaviour, apology and recompense.

No one is perfect or a saint.

As a Christian I believe that no-one is beyond redemption. Jesus died on the Cross and rose again to pay the price for all sin, past, present and future.
The prerequisite for that forgiveness is genuine repentance and turning ones life over to the Lordship of Christ.
In the Bible the word 'saint' refers to a believer not a degree of goodness
Paul had a genuine conversion on the road to Damascus and lived a transformed life but it took him years to be accepted by the disciples and others because of the atrocities he had committed in his pre-coversion days.
Only God knows the true state of our hearts and I'm so glad it's not my job to try and sort it out.

I'm sure sinners can mend their ways and atone for their sins.

I also believe it's quite a normal reaction to be cynical.

Increasingly, I find myself defending politicians I would never in a thousand years have voted for... that comment about Margaret Thatcher was about as spiteful as spiteful can be. And quite possibly incorrect.

Yes, Tuliptree, of course he was sneering at her background, too.
Whatever he may have done since, I will always think of him as a thoroughly unpleasant man - who I dare say has found effective ways of portraying himself. In a different light.

That's what I don't like about Christianity.........do whatever and God will forgive you, just like that.

I think anyone can seek redemption by being ashamed and horrified by their own past actions but are unlikely to become saints.

Tuliptree

Maws - it’s a pity on a thread as serious as this that you think anybody cares about spelling that vile person’s name correctly.

Oh come on, he isn’t Fred West!

M0nica

I just hope I never do anything wrong when you are around Tulip. You sound utterly unforgiving.

No matter how wrong people go in life they can change and I would always choose to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Anyone's actions can be given a suspicious slant if you put your mind to it. Many of the things you blame him for seem to be no more than saying he comes from a certain section of society, which is an accident of birth, and hardly his fault.

I agree.
Anything that he did that was wrong, is still wrong. Even having been punished doesn't change that, and an ongoing punishment is that that he may no longer be trusted.
But questioning anyone’s right to repent and change their ways because of their standard of living?
Maybe all wrongdoers should live in abject poverty, wearing sackcloth and ashes to satisfy moral rectitude.

M0nica

I just hope I never do anything wrong when you are around Tulip. You sound utterly unforgiving.

No matter how wrong people go in life they can change and I would always choose to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Anyone's actions can be given a suspicious slant if you put your mind to it. Many of the things you blame him for seem to be no more than saying he comes from a certain section of society, which is an accident of birth, and hardly his fault.

Well sad, I agree 100%.

I’m yet to meet a 100% perfect person.

I’m not excusing him, but he did the crime, has served his time and now, like it not, legally and possibly morally, he has a clean slate.

Tuliptree

He’s lived a great life after prison. He spent 3 years at Oxford at someone else’s expense, he wrote books, had bits and pieces of work with the church, a few hours a week as prison chaplain, married very well, He was much much more than dishonest. All the things that led upto his libel case against the Guardian. He was Minister of State for Defence Procurement and violated ministerial rules by allowing an Arab businessman to pay his hotel bills at the Paris Ritz. Also whilst a Cabinet Minister he signed a Public Interest Immunity Certificate which gagged documentation being released from a company covering the time he was a director of that company. Then a few years later had to resign as Chief Secretary to the Treasury for breaking more ministerial rules. When the Guardian finally broke their story, it included the procurement of prostitutes for Arab businessmen. Then came his chutzpah in suing the paper and Granada TV for publicising all this. Then the collapse of the trial when evidence proved he was lying plus of course as part of this his attempts to get his wife and daughter to perjure themselves. What exactly has he done to make amends? He went bankrupt owing over £2m in unpaid legal bills What public service has he given, apart from the oft publicised bit of prison chaplain work? What price has he exactly paid? 7 months in prison and then feted thereafter by the C of E and right wing papers who publish multiple interviews with him which provide sanitised versions of his behaviour. Compared with most prisoners, he’s had a great post prison life. Society wedding at upmarket church, upmarket flat, parliamentary pass to Houses of Parliament, pension way above average wage. What’s not to like?

I think there’s many many more people that have done far far worse things.

I actually believe in forgiveness. He “appears” to be truly contrite and repentant and has served his time.

It matters not one jot how “easy” his life was in prison, it’s the “loss of liberty” that’s the “punishment” not really what happened inside.

Everyone (well almost everyone) is deserving of a second chance.

I don’t know him personally (guessing you don’t either), so who really knows if he’s truly committed to living a better life. I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt.