Four more horses die in the name of ‘sport’

Ladies, GNs please re-read this Thread and say in which post I mentioned 'numbers'.
And may I ask. Numbers of what?

Caleo I can't really distinguish between intelligence, instinct and training because I used all three when working with horses. Nappiness is IMO understandable, particularly in youngsters, because horses are herd animals. I'm not sure it's a sign of intelligence more instinct, I think, and overcoming it IMO comes with consistent training, patience and sometimes finding what works for that particular horse. tbh I don't really think equines are "naughty" I think what we perceive as "naughty" is often a sign that the horse doesn't understand, is uncomfortable or is just questioning the rider/ horse relationship a bit. Equines are very sensitive to body language both in and out the saddle so they are constantly picking up information about us humans that they use in their relationships with us, just like they do with other equines.

I guess it depends how you define intelligence. With dogs Border Collies are supposed to be more intelligent than sighthounds because they do as they’re told. Whereas sighthounds do what suits them. Recall is hit and miss…if they see something on the horizon that takes their fancy they’re off. Is it more intelligent to decide to do what’s best for themselves?What does fascinate me is the way animals have senses that are beyond our comprehension. Smell, hearing telepathy. I often wonder what my dogs life is like in that she gets so much information from sniffing. And they say their time clock is down to smell etc. When you go out they know that when your smell has reduced by a certain amount you will be returning. Cats know when you’re going on holiday and it isn’t just because they see you packing. Horses will stand by the gate knowing someone is on the way to feed them. A horse that is quite fiery will be gentle as a lamb with a small child or a disabled person. Endo the blind horse learned how to navigate the world without sight and listened to what his owner told him to do. He jumped, did trail riding…everything a sighted horse could do.

foxie48

Oh, you can't beat a good grey, DO was a complete legend! We had our own DO, he was only 148cm, part Connie but the rest was TB and when young he was very, very naughty and nappy. Once he'd grown up a bit and my daughter had built a partnership with him, he was a really talented eventer capable of competing successfully against horses. I have a painting of him on the wall so I see him every day.

I have the impression that the native pony strain(eg Connemara) is more intelligent than the larger horse. We sometimes don't require a mount to be intelligent ,as intelligence is the basic cause of nappiness and other rebellion. What to do you think?

foxie48

I'm not sure what you mean by "more natural" Caleo. Exmoors are owned and managed. They graze on the moor but they are not "wild" per se, they get rounded up, some are sold, some are culled if they don't measure up to the breed standards, they are bred selectively to ensure not only the purity of the breed but also to ensure the breed stays healthy. In the past Exmoors, like many native breeds, started to decline in both health and numbers because of in breeding and there being a small gene pool.

True. "Natural" is a relative term. Forgive me, I meant the pure bred Exmoor is managed so it retains many true wild pony characteristics.

I guess you are among the minority of wise and ethical keepers of TB horses.

Guessing does not make something a fact.

I nearly bought a grey pony for my daughter but it had a melanoma. The vet said ‘ this woman is doing everything she can to stop me doing my job properly’. She even used her disabled daughter to show what a well behaved pony he was ( he wasn’t he was drugged up to the eyeballs). Narrow escape, that.

Oh, you can't beat a good grey, DO was a complete legend! We had our own DO, he was only 148cm, part Connie but the rest was TB and when young he was very, very naughty and nappy. Once he'd grown up a bit and my daughter had built a partnership with him, he was a really talented eventer capable of competing successfully against horses. I have a painting of him on the wall so I see him every day.

foxie48

Totally agree GG13

What I love about GN is there's always an opportunity to learn something new. MayBee70 I think Sprinter Sacre is one of the most beautiful horses ever, I saw him at Cheltenham Festival years ago and won a bit of money too. I had no idea he was a Selle Francais, I just assumed he was a full TB. He's still alive and living in Gloucestershire with the Henderson's. He had a knock in the field and was operated on to have some bone chips removed earlier this year but to date he's had 10 years of retirement from racing. fwiw an equine arthroscopy costs several thousands of pounds and tbh most owners would struggle to find that sort of money to repair an old retired horse nor have the money to continue to insure! The only options would be to leave the horse in pain or PTS.

I didn’t know he was a selle Francais either. I knew about The Fellow because he beat my beloved Desert Orchid. I was at Cheltenham when Sprinter won the Supreme. I always stand by the pre parade ring so I must have seen him. When he had his problem Nico was in tears;he rode work on him one day and realised something was wrong. Then Nicky brought him back to full fitness and when he regained his crown grown men were in tears. Altior is living with Mick Fitzgerald. He had colic recently but thankfully recovered. I still regard my true friends as the ones that, when Desert Orchid nearly died of colic, phoned me up to see if I was ok ( I wasn’t; I was in bits). My gravestone is going to read “1952 to whenever; she kissed Desert Orchid” .

I'm not sure what you mean by "more natural" Caleo. Exmoors are owned and managed. They graze on the moor but they are not "wild" per se, they get rounded up, some are sold, some are culled if they don't measure up to the breed standards, they are bred selectively to ensure not only the purity of the breed but also to ensure the breed stays healthy. In the past Exmoors, like many native breeds, started to decline in both health and numbers because of in breeding and there being a small gene pool.

Foxie, nobody would disagree that the English thoroughbred is beautiful and good for purpose, nor that good horsemanship is a worthy skill.

The English thoroughbred is artificial like the Aberdeen Angus bull is artificial. (Among horses possibly the more 'natural ;animal is the Exmoor pony)

Humans created breeds for purposes, and human purposes are seldom as ethical as you would seem to portray. You are a good person and I guess you are among the minority of wise and ethical keepers of TB horses.

Lathyrus3

“I do believe that culling is the most ethical policy”

To be honest Caleb, I’m not quite sure what you’re saying ie

The current culling of retired racehorses is the most ethical

or

the mass cull consequent upon a ban is the most ethical.

If it’s the latter I salute you for your ability to look facts in the face and accept the consequences of an action.

It’s quite rare.👏👏

"the mass cull consequent upon a ban is the most ethical."
That is what I meant, Lathyrus.

There are times when humans need to choose the least bad option.

foxie48

Thanks MayBee70 you're correct, Flat racing requires a horse to be full TB, NH racing they will accept horses that technically are not full TB 31/32 is acceptable for certain races. They can't be entered in the main stud book though. I'm never to old to learn!

It’s the mares that are partly non thoroughbred. The stallions all go back to the three founding stallions. They say use stallion for speed and mares for stamina. There’s a dosage system which I will never understand that works out what distance a horse would be capable of running. I think in France they only use mares that retire sound whereas here they’ll use one that has retired unsound ( I could be wrong about that because I’m going by an article I read years ago that I now can’t find). Some horse breeders came to it from breeding cattle and understanding pedigrees. Mind you the lady that bred Dream Alliance ( who won the Welsh National and only died recently at a ripe old age) on an allotment got her knowledge from breeding racing pigeons. My friend has a horse that came third in one of the Cheltenham races whose great grand sire Sunday Silence is one of my favourite American horses and I love the way that I can see him and remember back to his great grandsires racing days. I hope he doesn’t have his temperament though as Sunday Silence would eat people for breakfast.

Lathyrus3 I would also be interested in that link.

I posted the British Racing figures on death of race horses, and they do not coincide with Maremia’s numbers she posted…

Maremia

No thanks Taunton, I already have my Easter holidays booked.
Much more straightforward to ask someone/thing who has no 'skin in the game'.
What would the organisers at your suggested event reply to a question 'Is doping still an issue in horse racing?'
Seriously??? You think that's a viable way to do such research?

So, I asked Google, and expected something like,
'There used to be a problem, but now it's under control'
instead, sadly, Google said 'Yes'
There followed a long list of the painkillers and other drugs still being illegally administered to some racehorses.

In fact there was more.
'The British Horseracing Authority has EXPANDED its anti doping programme to combat gene therapy doping'
First I've heard of that concept.

Another comment,
'Ongoing vigilance is essential'
And so we are back to, is horse racing 'benign' or barbaric'?

I’m surprised at what you say you found.

I googled exactly that and got very different answers.🤔

I also googled ‘Statistics for doping racehorses Britain 2025” and found no reported cases.

I then tried worldwide statistics and confirmed cases were reported at 0.34 %, the majority being in Mexico.

I’d be grateful if you could give me a link to the site that says it is still a problem. As well as the one that says thousands of racehorses are slaughtered annually, as you have stated already.

Could they be the same site?

You didn’t mention that the action on gene therapy is a pre-emptive measure to make sure it never happens in British horse acing, not a reaction to something that is happening.

Totally agree GG13

What I love about GN is there's always an opportunity to learn something new. MayBee70 I think Sprinter Sacre is one of the most beautiful horses ever, I saw him at Cheltenham Festival years ago and won a bit of money too. I had no idea he was a Selle Francais, I just assumed he was a full TB. He's still alive and living in Gloucestershire with the Henderson's. He had a knock in the field and was operated on to have some bone chips removed earlier this year but to date he's had 10 years of retirement from racing. fwiw an equine arthroscopy costs several thousands of pounds and tbh most owners would struggle to find that sort of money to repair an old retired horse nor have the money to continue to insure! The only options would be to leave the horse in pain or PTS.

Maremia in my opinion horse racing is not barbaric.

The racing authorities are always looking at ways to make racing safer for horses and jockeys.

Unfortunately there will always be a small percentage who think they can get away with bucking the rules.

Thanks MayBee70 you're correct, Flat racing requires a horse to be full TB, NH racing they will accept horses that technically are not full TB 31/32 is acceptable for certain races. They can't be entered in the main stud book though. I'm never to old to learn!

No thanks Taunton, I already have my Easter holidays booked.
Much more straightforward to ask someone/thing who has no 'skin in the game'.
What would the organisers at your suggested event reply to a question 'Is doping still an issue in horse racing?'
Seriously??? You think that's a viable way to do such research?

So, I asked Google, and expected something like,
'There used to be a problem, but now it's under control'
instead, sadly, Google said 'Yes'
There followed a long list of the painkillers and other drugs still being illegally administered to some racehorses.

In fact there was more.
'The British Horseracing Authority has EXPANDED its anti doping programme to combat gene therapy doping'
First I've heard of that concept.

Another comment,
'Ongoing vigilance is essential'
And so we are back to, is horse racing 'benign' or barbaric'?

“A significant number of French brood mares are not Thoroughbreds. In France, particularly in the realm of jump racing (National Hunt) and sport horse breeding, non-Thoroughbred mares are frequently used, often producing highly successful offspring.
The Owner Breeder
The Owner Breeder
+1
Key details regarding non-Thoroughbred French brood mares include:
AQPS (Autre Que Pur-Sang): This translates to "Other Than Thoroughbred." The AQPS studbook (created in 2005) is crucial in French jumps breeding,, allowing mares that are not pure Thoroughbreds to compete and breed. These mares often have higher percentages of Anglo-Arab or Selle Français blood, which provides toughness and jumping ability.
Selle Français (SF): While primarily known as a top-level show jumping breed, Selle Français mares are also used to produce top-level steeplechase horses, particularly when crossed with Thoroughbred or Anglo-Arabian stallions.
Anglo-Arabians: Often used in crossbreeding programs for eventing and jump racing, this breed brings stamina and toughness to the French breeding industry.
French Trotters (Trotteur Français): While mainly used for harness racing, these mares are sometimes crossed for speed and stamina in other disciplines.
www.horsemagazine.com
www.horsemagazine.com
+4
These non-Thoroughbred mares are often crossed with Thoroughbred stallions to produce high-class, competitive jumping horses in France.
The Owner Breeder
The Owner Breeder
A thoroughbred in all but name? - The Owner Breeder
1 Nov 2012 — Distinct breed, or a myth? What makes an AQPS horse different from a thoroughbred is a question that produces numerous answers. He...

The Owner Breeder

French Eventing: Part Two – The Anglo-Arab - The Horse Magazine
7 Jan 2017 — French Eventing: Part Two – The Anglo-Arab * Christopher Hector looks at a breed under threat. It is something of a tragedy, that ...

www.horsemagazine.com

Here's what I think French jumps breeders are getting right
28 Dec 2023 — - There is no real difference in mare quality. All three nations increasingly rely on mares who have been tested on the racecourse...”

Racing Post

foxie48

MayBee70 may I correct you one small point, please. To race in the UK a horse must be a full TB so French horses like Kauto Star and Galopin de Champs are full TB, although I agree that there are some super French horses bred for other disciplines that are not TBs eg Selle Francais

“The Fellow (1985–2008) was not a full Thoroughbred; he was a top-class French AQPS (Autre Que Pur-Sang - "Other Than Thoroughbred") racehorse who won the 1994 Cheltenham Gold Cup. While he was a French-bred chaser, his pedigree was a mix of Thoroughbred and high-quality French riding horse blood, typical of the AQPS breed”.
Wikipedia
Wikipedia

Nightowl there isn't a mass cull going on every day, every year, every decade. The evidence doesn't support that. However, there are lots of obese horses and ponies going down with laminitis which is excruciatingly painful, lots of horses and ponies being ridden that are lame and in constant pain, lots of horses and ponies being ridden in poorly fitting tack, lots of ponies and horses being ridden who are in pain each and every day because their owners are ignorant or negligent and IMO these deserve our concern far more than race horses who are well cared for, ridden by jockeys who know what they are doing and ridden in the correct tack for the job.

nightowl

Rosie do you expect me to have all the answers to what should happen if racing was banned? A little unfair I think. I’m not involved in racing, I don’t support it and I think those that work in it are the ones who should be made to sort it out. I’ve been involved with horses all my life but you don’t need to be an expert to see the faults in the racing industry. And yes I do think owners and trainers and especially breeders should take responsibility for the horses they produce or buy.

As for asking me whether I think a mass cull is an acceptable price to pay for banning racing, read my posts again. To clarify: I believe there is a mass cull going on every day, every year, every decade. It will continue as long as racing continues. What’s the difference? None of it is right.

To clarify: I believe there is a mass cull going on every day, every year, every decade. It will continue as long as racing continues.

It has just been pointed out by posters more knowledgeable than you and me that that is simply not true.

It is an emotive subject but using untruths or half-truths to try to prove a point will not help those who campaign to ban racing.

Rosie do you expect me to have all the answers to what should happen if racing was banned? A little unfair I think. I’m not involved in racing, I don’t support it and I think those that work in it are the ones who should be made to sort it out. I’ve been involved with horses all my life but you don’t need to be an expert to see the faults in the racing industry. And yes I do think owners and trainers and especially breeders should take responsibility for the horses they produce or buy.

As for asking me whether I think a mass cull is an acceptable price to pay for banning racing, read my posts again. To clarify: I believe there is a mass cull going on every day, every year, every decade. It will continue as long as racing continues. What’s the difference? None of it is right.

My little TB lived to 28 and was pts becaue he had strangulated colic probably due to internal growths, the dark bay eventer lived to 20 and was found dead in the field, possibly a heart attack. I don't think some posters have any idea of how long domestic horses can live, how much care they need as they get older and how much the vet bills can stack up. The little tb had cushings in later life and my monthly vet bill was pretty big even when he was completely retired but IMO worth every penny as he was much loved. He may have been "little" for a tb but he was a huge personality. It makes me so cross when people suggest owners see their horses as a "commodity" it is just not true.