Surely this is a miscarriage of justice in itself?

I saw that M0nica. I wonder why people are so prepared to believe this government will ever do the right thing.

A government that takes the rule of law away from one group of people could take it from any one of us. Next time they presume guilt, judged on data they hold above suspicion, the people convicted may be unable to challenge that judgment. That could be any of us.

Democracy is not the dictatorship of the majority, as some here seem to think. It is a system of checks and balances that this government is slowly eroding.

A second PO scheme that led to prosecutions, but is thought to be faulty was revealed in the ppers this morning.

My worry is that some victims still haven't surfaced. You might find the article I posted here interesting.
www.gransnet.com/forums/news_and_politics/1331558-POST-OFFICE-HORIZON-SOFTWARE-ORIGINALLY-AIMED-AT-CLAIMANTS (sorry about the capitals).

Anyone who has had dealings with PIP claimants will know what a dog's breakfast it is. If this system was intended to collect information on benefit claimants how many of them have been subjected to the "guilty until found innocent" upside-down justice.

I have a horrible feeling that there is more to come and that the new Government access to Bank Accounts law could go the same way.

For Mogsmaw, your piece about Jo Hamilton is flawed, she accepted what she was presented with by that system, AND by what she was told by the 'support' people, because she (& almost all the others) had no access to any 'paper trail' or proper details to challenge the sub-totals and totals on her screen. The evidence provided was based on an assortment of perjured evidence, and the prosecutions pushed very hard to get guilty pleas because that meant they didn't have to provide really detailed evidence. It's hardly likely that the defence solicitors had enough accounting or specialist IT knowledge to be able to recommend pleading not guilty?!

There was a time when I would have said I would NEVER have pleaded guilty to something I had not done. However with lawyers advising me and the prospect of going to prison being avoided, I actually believe I may have succumbed to this. Even as I write this I can't believe I'm saying it but I sadly suspect it could possibly be true. Guess I'll just have to make sure I'm not put to the test. Mind you, I've not a moment's doubt the poor sub post office workers felt as innocent as I do now. SO sad for them and disgraceful for the perpetrators.

So, ‘plea bargaining’ isn’t allowed in the UK, but being advised to admit guilt to avoid a Crown Court case or to receive a lesser sentence is ok. Looks like a plea bargain is about bartering /negotiatng with the Judge/magistrate, but I’m not clear on it all.
From Wiki:
‘In England and Wales, plea bargaining, in the sense of seeking a particular sentence in exchange for dropping some charges, is not permitted; only the judge or magistrates have the power to determine sentence, and an agreement between the prosecution and defence cannot bind the court.’
en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki
Plea bargain - Wikipedia

I have been listening to The Great Post Office trial in 14 (?) episodes on BBC radio 4 iPlayer, and my blood is boiling all over again. A recorded investigation by a journalist, Nick Wallis, over at least thirteen years, with many of the principals involved; he actually got a brief interview with Nick Reed, the current CEO. No one has yet been prosecuted for the desecration they caused and the Post Office is fighting tooth and nail over legitimate compensation, offering £4,000 instead of £60, 000 they were eventually awarded, for example, whilst awarding bonuses to every employee who took part in the trial. You could almost hear Reed smirking as he enunciated perfectly all the stock phrases;and it is clear they have no intention of changing their culture.
Many of them need to be sacked, put on trial, receive criminal convictions and lose their bonuses and pensions; then they can go out cleaning to make ends meet (Vennells) or walk to work,(George Thompson, Union Rep who supported the PO against the sub post masters) or sleep in their car because they can't afford overnight accommodation (the programme planners who designed Horizon.)
How do these people continue to flourish even when exposed?.

henetha

The 'slithery elite'... a good description. I feel a huge rage against those people , treating people in this disgusting way.
I worked in a sub post office for five years in the 70's and the postmaster and his wife were lovely people. I'm so glad they retired before this all happened.
And people imprisoned and then found to be not guilty, there was a case recently wasn't there. I bet he is still waiting for compensation to be paid.
My blood is boiling right now for the huge injustice of all this.

Mine too!

grannysue101

I think one of the saddest things to come out of the Post Office scandal is that quite a few small village communities actually believed their postmaster had stollen the money. They were ostracised and their children bullied and taunted at school. That is truly heartbreaking.

You are spot on there grannysue1. There was an article about the sub postmaster from the village where the Middletown’s lived. He was saying how supportive and kind the family was to him always and were thrilled when he was cleared. But like many others, he was treated appallingly by people who’d known him for years after a false conviction.

it must happen a lot, when my son was 11 & started big school 20+ yrs ago in town some big boys told him to wait outside a shop and tell them if a police person was coming. He didn't really know what was going on & was frightened of them so he did. They were caught and charged so J was charged as an accessory. The solicitor told him to plead guilty cos he was guilty under laws of joint liability, so now he has a criminal record he doesn't really deserve. It hasn't hindered his career 20+ yrs on, but its not really right.

Being advised to plead guilty when you know you are innocent in order to get a lighter sentence, smacks far too much of ‘plea bargaining’ to me, which is a morally bankrupt practice. We hear far too much about this in the US. courts. Do we really want this dreadful practice to become commonplace here? (Although it probably happens more often than we think under our ‘justice’ system!)

I think one of the saddest things to come out of the Post Office scandal is that quite a few small village communities actually believed their postmaster had stollen the money. They were ostracised and their children bullied and taunted at school. That is truly heartbreaking.

While wellbeck does provide an explanation as to why it is done, I agree that it has to be wrong to persuade someone to plead guilty, to avoid a custodial sentence, when in fact they are innocent. It would seem that our justice system isn't so just after all.

To name a few M0nica. This is time gone from their lives and family they’ll never get back. No amount of compensation can make up for this. It’s very sad.

Oldnproud, you are right, a prisoner is not considered for parole until they admit their group. This is why Andrew Malkinson was in prison for 18 years.

His is not the only case. There have been many cases. the most famous:The Stockwell 6, The Maguire 7, The Guildford 4 and the Birmingham 6. There were a whole series of miscarriages of justice that ended in people being imprisoned in south Wales. To name but a few

nanna8

Thank the Lord they no longer hang people - hate to think how many innocents were put to death.

100% nanna8 Says it all.

Thoughtful and thought provoking responses, thank you all. Makes depressing reading doesn’t it. Can’t begin to imagine being personally involved.

eazybee

The man who was accused of rape and was sentenced to 7 years, was not released for seventeen years because he refused to admit guilt, until he was found innocent due to DNA testing. He was awarded compensation, which the prison authorities tried to claim because' he owed them for board and lodging'.
Britain is run by what Allison Pearson described as a 'slithery elite., the band who move from well-paid job to sinecure, and at present they seem untouchable. Someone on the radio this morning was advocating prison sentences, and until these people are convicted and lose their status and money, they will continue to act this way, simply because they can.

It stinks, doesn't it.

I haven't the time right now to double-check this, but I am pretty sure that I have read that a convict will not even be considered for parole until they admit the crime of which they have, rightly or wrongly, been found guilty. If there has been a miscarriage of justice, it seems they can't win either way!

If I am wrong, hopefully someone will quickly set matters straight.

I follow this with interest and horror. One of the questions that springs to my mind is why any initially intelligent, respectable and honest person would want to be a criminal lawyer when 'the system' is known to have so many flaws and shortcomings. They can't surely all be desperate for money and prestige at the outset?

You have to wonder what kind of a justice system we have that, even when these cases went to trial, the courts could not correctly determine that these people were in fact innocent.

‘Flawed’ does not begin to describe it.

It was the perfect storm for injustice - the same organisation (Post Office) was, in this case, the "victim", investigator and prosecutor.

If some of these cases had to be tried by the usual process its quite possible that the DPP would have found that the evidence did not meet the standard for a likely prosecution.

Answer to the OP, yes it is quite wrong that innocent people should be advised to plead guilty. Makes a travesty of the system. Someone earlier mentioned this was to reflect the courts being put 'to the trouble of expense of a trial'. Surely that is what the courts are for?

I think the reason why the post Office drama caused such an outcry apart from the obvious gross injustice is that almost everyone has had the experience of trying to get a response from government bodies and large businesses like the banks and waiting on the end of a so-called customer service call for hours or for a response on a problem that should take a few minutes to sort out. Newspaper problem pages are full of this. John Major is probably the only politician to try to deal with this through his Citizen's Charter but it was never a great success. The government and business attitude seems to be 'Let them wait. Let them queue. Let them die.'

eazybee

The man who was accused of rape and was sentenced to 7 years, was not released for seventeen years because he refused to admit guilt, until he was found innocent due to DNA testing. He was awarded compensation, which the prison authorities tried to claim because' he owed them for board and lodging'.
Britain is run by what Allison Pearson described as a 'slithery elite., the band who move from well-paid job to sinecure, and at present they seem untouchable. Someone on the radio this morning was advocating prison sentences, and until these people are convicted and lose their status and money, they will continue to act this way, simply because they can.

This is inhuman. And so many others imprisoned wrongly; those innocent men for the bombing in Birmingham in the 70s. And it goes on and on.

Including Adam Crozier.
A couple will fall on their swords (Ed Davey? Paula Vennells?), and the rest will keep their heads down, and hope the public will move on.