Has anyone watched the 90 minute BBC documentary on Shamima Begum?

I haven’t watched the programme Urmstongran so can’t answer your question, but thankyou for this thread. I will definitely watch it now having read read yours and others views.

Aw thanks for coming back to explain foxie that was kind of you.
😊

Urmonstongran Sorry i think you have misunderstood my post, probably my fault but what I meant was, people are prepared to accept that white girls were groomed but not Asian girls. I take your point about the Rotherham case, the girls were between 12-16 and they were completely let down by the police and most of the Social workers. It was truly appalling and as I've already said, these victims were labelled as having made "life choices" It beggars belief!

No problem .

We'll never know all the details, I don't suppose, but I don't think she knew half of what to expect.

Doodledog

*But if he’d said that in order to live this idyllic life you’d have to watch people being beheaded, and maybe be involved in killings, ,would you still have gone….*

No, but I don't think that that side of things was made clear to SB either. The documentary showed a propaganda video with smiling children being handed food and toys, and handsome men in mixed-sex crowds.

I think she was wrong to go - who wouldn't think that? But I also think that she made a mistake as a 15 year old who was taken in by people well-schooled in manipulation and grooming, and that 15 year olds should not be written off for doing stupid things, however bad they are.

I haven’t yet watched the documentary, so I apologise to you for my comment, which possibly sounded rude. I think I assumed she knew all aspects of what she was getting involved in.

It is important to consider that teenagers brains are still developing and do not function fully as adults until well into their 20s. Simply put they don’t have the same ability to consider the consequences of their actions, and decision making is led much more by emotion.
We certainly are not the individuals we were at 15 Doodledog 😀

So Curtaintwitcher- is a 15 year old legally and morally responsible for his/her actions or not? Be it in Rotherham or wherever?

Either one is, or none of them.

British citizen? If she truly felt British she would not have gone there in the first place. She is a traitor to this country and all the benefits she and her family have gained from being allowed to come and live here. She fought alongside the people she truly felt an affinity with.

Chances were missed too regarding Shamima. School had concerns and wanted to alert her parent. Stupidly they passed the letter to Shamima herself to ‘give to mum’. Aargh!

Shamima’s older sister who loves her was most upset by this error.

Shamima says in the documentary she wouldn’t have listened to her older self telling her not to go.

I might just watch the documentary again tonight.
It was that good, it bears another look.

''i see no comparison with rotherham etc victims.'' so a 15 year old groomed in Rotherham is innocent and a victim... but Shemima at the same age is responsible for her actions.

I can assure you all the 15 year olds I know would realise that mature men who give them cigarettes, alcohol, cheap goodies, and rides in their car- would KNOW 100% that it was wrong, and that they should run.

But Shemima and the other girls came from families that didn't support them or showed them affection. And I am quite sure, just like Shemima, when school, social workers, friends, etc, told them NOT TO, they wouldn't have listened anyway. Just like Shemima.

?what does
<so does Christianity!>
mean in this context ?
she is muslim, not christian.

I think ‘preyed upon’ might be more appropriate under the circumstances Fleurpepper! 🤣

so does Christianity!

She was groomed, she was a victim- and she came from a family background and conflict of cultures, etc, which caused her to be prayed upon. Yes, like the other girls... in a different way.

If it is deemed to have been 'a choice' for her, why not for the others. I am sure they understood that the gifts of cigarettes, alcohol, etc, were not given as generosity by the awful people who groomed them.

And sorry Urmstongran, as much as I would love for people to judge people and cases by colour- that is not the reality out there.

people keep saying she was a child at 15, but she had enough nous to steal her sister's passport and impersonate her.
also doesn't islam say something about respecting, obeying one's parents.
rather than going behind their backs to leave home.
didn't the headmistress of her school warn about the false lures of terrorist groups.
the age of criminal responsibility is 10. not 18.
a 15 year old bears responsibility for their actions.
i don't know what should happen to her.
i'm glad i don't have to decide that.
but i feel no sympathy for her. she was is a terrorist. only stopped because of being captured.
i see no comparison with rotherham etc victims.

Yes, of course I agree foxie they were groomed. Given alcohol and sweets and cigarettes as an inducement. Rides in cars (taxis) to make them feel ‘special’. But in the end, the bad things were DONE to them. They weren’t doing bad things to OTHERS.

That, to me, is the main difference.

Shamima too was groomed. Now, I have no doubt about it since watching the documentary. Her friend (already in Syria) presented a false picture of life out there with ISIS. But once there, Shamima saw things (she was intelligent and not stupid) and these atrocities were being done, not to her - although her idealistic husband was abusive - but to OTHERS.

Shamima herself was safe - provided she obeyed her husband.
The Rotherham girls were not safe. Although both WERE groomed.

"I suppose the main difference is these poor, needy girls from broken homes and often ‘in care’ had bad things done to THEM. Their misfortune was to become embroiled in lifestyle choices that ended up harming THEMSELVES. They were the victims (unlike Shamima who made a choice to go out and SUPPORT a violent regime)."
She was "groomed" Urmstongran just like the other girls were groomed, she was also a child. The girls in Bradford etc didn't make "lifestyle choices" they were groomed, it is really not the same thing at all and they didn't "harm themselves" they were harmed by evil men who picked on them because they were unhappy, vulnerable children and therefore susceptible and easy prey.

I don’t think racism for one minute foxie although anger did play a part as the authorities were so keen ‘not to offend anyone culturally’ (and wasn’t one of the perpetrators on the local Council too which must have been awkward for the authorities to tackle!) that blind eye syndrome took over for far too long. I honestly believe that the fact it was local Asian men grooming vulnerable white girls has nothing to do with the colour of the skins involved. In fact, had it been white taxi driver gangs doing this to those girls, I believe the authorities would have been more confident about stepping in and would have done so much sooner.

We need to stop looking at the colour of people’s skins - white, black, brown - and concentrate on the CRIMES committed and have the guts to go in and deal with it.

But if he’d said that in order to live this idyllic life you’d have to watch people being beheaded, and maybe be involved in killings, ,would you still have gone….

No, but I don't think that that side of things was made clear to SB either. The documentary showed a propaganda video with smiling children being handed food and toys, and handsome men in mixed-sex crowds.

I think she was wrong to go - who wouldn't think that? But I also think that she made a mistake as a 15 year old who was taken in by people well-schooled in manipulation and grooming, and that 15 year olds should not be written off for doing stupid things, however bad they are.

Fleurpepper

Please can someone explain- why is a 15 year old from Bradford 'groomed' and a naive victim, and another guilty and evil?

Yes I wonder that too, Fleurpepper could it be that the victims in Bradford and Rotherham were white girls groomed by Asian men as opposed to SB, who is a Muslim Asian girl groomed by a Muslim terrorist group? Might there be an element of racism lurking here?

I suppose Fleurpepper it’s because there are no easy, glib answers. Integration is a very complex situation with tussles amongst the generational families concerned. The Muslim parents come to the West for a better life - standards in medicine, public health, education etc - not so much our values and way of life. Their children go to schools and become somewhat ‘westernised’ with their mobile phones, access to music and fashion and friends. Then they go home after school and their parents don’t integrate. Some mothers in the families neither go out to work, nor learn to speak English. They become fearful for their rebellious teenagers. They perhaps become over strict. Girls in particular, who mature quicker and don’t have the same freedoms as the boys, become confused between ‘possibilities they see Out There’ and what their traditional families expect of them. This must chafe some of these girls. It is such a dichotomy that confronts them!

To look on line and see young freedom fighters on the side of Allah against the infidels (after all, ‘they don’t like us much anyway’ must go through their minds) will tempt some if they are feisty enough. Others in their peer group will probably just try to muddle through the two ways of life, maybe hoping a future husband will be somewhat Westernised too.

I think this second generation - or coming up for third now - have a lot of issues to contend with. It can’t be easy.

But your question was also about grooming of those girls in Rotherham etc. by Asian taxi drivers, many of whom were given prison sentences.

I suppose the main difference is these poor, needy girls from broken homes and often ‘in care’ had bad things done to THEM. Their misfortune was to become embroiled in lifestyle choices that ended up harming THEMSELVES. They were the victims (unlike Shamima who made a choice to go out and SUPPORT a violent regime).

That’s how I see it anyway.

And all of them from difficult, deprived backgrounds, with all sorts of issues.

Please can someone explain- why is a 15 year old from Bradford 'groomed' and a naive victim, and another guilty and evil?

Lizbethann, the documentary is well worth watching. You’ll gain some insight into what life with her Dutch husband would have been like and why she has no desire to be with him again. He’s still in prison at the moment.

I didn't see the programme. But just reading the comments on here have made me soften my views about her.
Although I did at one point a while ago wonder if she should be sent to Holland as her husband is Dutch and isn't she supposed to " belong" to him.
From what I remember her father looked quite old and a very traditional Muslim. I bet SB didn't have an easy life at home and I agree that the life offered must have seemed exciting and romantic. Didn't the father hot foot it back to Bangladesh and abandon his family?