The case against ID cards

There were no incidents Mamie. It is the principle of carrying ID. I loved living in France and to be honest, its not for me to say how another country organises itself.

I object to the thought that anyone has to "prove" their own citizenship, just to be going about their normal business. Not accessing services, not getting goods delivered, not even straying close to a demonstration. Just "being". In this country and I'm sure in many others, we are innocent until proven guilty.

I did have an incident when I lived in Australia, when I was breathalysed just for having chosen to drive down a particular urban street. Not because I as driving erratically (which I wasn't), not because I smelt of alcohol (which I didn't), not because they had good reason to believe I was a danger to others (which I wasn't). Everyone was being breathalysed. Innocent till proven guilty?

I have no problem with the concept of ID cards. It would solve all sorts of issues.

I do have concerns about what this Governement would do with it. So we should all have access to the info that is carried on the card- and some things should not be allowed to be included.

Having regular breathalysing, is an excellent idea, of all drivers. No problem with this at all.

Well nobody could deny the level of paper heavy bureaucracy in France. 😂 We took out a car lease this year and we signed or initialled over 200 pages of small print. Transactions can involve birth certificates, marriage certificates (plus translations of same), electricity bills, tax returns, etc etc. ID cards just save a few dozen more bits of paper......

Fleurpepper

Having regular breathalysing, is an excellent idea, of all drivers. No problem with this at all.

HGV drivers in certain parts of the EU have to breathe into a device that immobilises their truck if they are over the limit.

So they get their friends to do it.

There's always a way round things and the simplest ideas are often not as good as people think they are.

I think volver has explained her objections perfectly clearly but for the benefit of people who have not understood what she said (there seem to be a few), here are two articles (old ones) from Europe and the US that set out the arguments very well.

www.ft.com/content/2ec95b9a-4709-11e8-8c77-ff51caedcde6

www.computerworld.com/article/2583871/five-reasons-why-national-id-cards-are-a-bad-idea.html

I wonder if the difference between the sides of the argument are an illustration of English (and American) exceptionalism?

I did not find the articles paywalled.

Fleurpepper
Are ID cards compulsory in Switzerland?

volver

Fleurpepper

Having regular breathalysing, is an excellent idea, of all drivers. No problem with this at all.

HGV drivers in certain parts of the EU have to breathe into a device that immobilises their truck if they are over the limit.

So they get their friends to do it.

There's always a way round things and the simplest ideas are often not as good as people think they are.

Well that can't happen if there are road side checks py Police, can it?

But thank you for posting this thread. It is a fascinating subject, and it is good to see it from all angles.

Denmark doesn't issue ID cards either, but honestly, I wish our government would.

Here you have to give proof of your identity when picking up parcels at the post office, signing legal documents and for practically any transaction entailing larger sums of money.

We cannot use our health cards as for some reason only known to civil servants these do not have a photo of the holder, so those like myself who do not have a driving licence have to use their passports.

If I travel to countries such as Germany, Austria or France where it is illegal not to have your ID card on you at all times, I may not leave my passport in the hotel safe, but must carry it on me.

Many people here object to the very thought of ID cards, using similar arguments to those used in the UK.

What no-one seems to think of, is that the information contained on an ID card is already available on various data bases linked to our social security numbers and great trouble an effort has been made (and taxpayers' money spent) on ensuring that these registers cannot be accessed by anyone except the relevant civil servant or health professional dealing with a member of the public.

Of course, no system is 100% secure, so mistakes can be made, systems abused, and identities stolen.

On the other hand, if you have nothing to hide, why should you object to carrying a card stating your identity?

And yes, an identity card should stop people moon-lighting as an employer has to be shown it before employing you. It should also stop underage drinking, as bar-tenders are obliged to ask for anyone they suspect of being underage to show theirs.

On the other hand, if you have nothing to hide, why should you object to carrying a card stating your identity?

Seriously? Read the thread. The reasons are explained ad nauseam.

But thank you for posting this thread. It is a fascinating subject, and it is good to see it from all angles.

You're welcome Fleurpepper.

Sometimes, the reason is no more than “I don’t want to!”
I always wondered if, as part of the EU rules, we’d eventually have been obliged to have them.

MerylStreep

Fleurpepper
Are ID cards compulsory in Switzerland?

Yes they are.

Have been caught out whilst skiing without any ID, so now we always carry our passport.

Personally I would be happy to have an ID card. There are so many places when you are asked for ID nowadays and that would make it easy. I do not have a driving licence and soon need to renew my passport so that I have ID. I haven't travelled abroad for years but still need a passport, which is expensive.

Mamie

It is interesting really. To me, my French residence / ID card (which included fingerprinting) is extremely reassuring. It proves to everyone that I have the right to live here. My UK passport does that in the UK, but obviously not everyone has one.
It is very difficult to live "under the radar" here. I guess it is a matter of personal opinion whether that is a good or bad thing.

I agree Mamie. The Uk has an immigration problem which they are quick to point the finger at Europe for. Europe has an immigration problem. Working in Europe is even more difficult when ID cards are the norm. Join up the dots.

Ok I am repeating what has already been said
I’m in France and through my experience it hasn’t worried me that I carry ID, it hasn’t stopped my freedom to do anything. If I am ever stopped and don’t have it on me, I have 48 hours to go to police station to verify who I am.
Moreover, the government here are bringing in more measures to stop health fraud through issuing digital cards in the next few years.
There is frightening amount of information on each of us already on the web. I don’t want to deal with bank etc. online but we are being forced to. Also there are devices such as watches, Alexa, house alarms, TV all voice controlled which track us all the time, not counting phones.
The horse in the 90’s has already bolted.
What I do worry about is facial recognition like they have in certain countries which have been proven not to be 100% correct and that stop people’s liberties because they have not toed the official line.

What I do worry about is facial recognition like they have in certain countries which have been proven not to be 100% correct and that stop people’s liberties because they have not toed the official line.

It is exactly dangers and outrages like this that people who are opposed to ID cards fear. Just because it hasn't happened yet in, say, France doesn't mean it never will. Governments should not have this kind of power over people.

Volver would you have an ID card if it was the only way you could watch Strictly?

Baggs do you not think (for example) that people of colour who are constantly stopped and searched by the police without due reason are not already suffering an attack on their liberties?
Might life be easier for them if they had an identity card to immediately prove their identity, nationality and rights to residence?

I agree with Volver, 100% No to ID cards, I will fight tooth and nail to oppose these. However, sadly I think we are already heading down the slippery slope. This has been exasperated by covid passes etc. Right minded people need to make their voices heard loud and clear. Read up about the control the Chinese dictatorship has over the ordinary people it's terrifying. So, those who don't mind...be careful what you wish for, if not for yourselves then your children and grandchildren.

It seems that the only EU / EEA countries without ID cards are UK, Ireland, Iceland and Denmark.

UK obviously no longer EU / EEA.

Mamie

Baggs do you not think (for example) that people of colour who are constantly stopped and searched by the police without due reason are not already suffering an attack on their liberties?
Might life be easier for them if they had an identity card to immediately prove their identity, nationality and rights to residence?

Are the same people "constantly stopped and searched"?

I don't think police stop and search powers are always abuses of power. Without knowing all the details of stops and searches I cannot decide whether all such are suffering attacks on their liberty but yes, I agree that is probably the case sometimes. And obviously that is a bad thing, as the Windrush scandal showed.

And, yes, it's possbile that an ID card would help in some cases but would a passport or driving licence not do the same? What has happened/is happening about the Windrush victims by way of government apologies and compensation? Just by the way.

As soon as I see or hear anyone using the words 'right minded' I discount their opinion. Who is to say what is 'right mindedness', or ' right thinking'?

I do think a lot of police forces need to improve their game, btw. Some of their recent nonsense and time-wasting has been disgraceful. But that's a wider issue.