Unbelievable description

I’m sorry Hetty but if you remove and animal's skin it will DIE

Thanks
I was echoing what yeahbutnobut post#, but wondering too, what would happen to these animals if not cared for by farmers. The fox population would probably increase to a huge proportion. If we went ahead with more rewilding then wolves would breed extensively with all that available food.

Although - are foxes etc supposed to become vegan too?

Callistemon ... sensible posts, as always ?

There were extensive discussions on a thread about mulesing, you may be able to do a search.

As for plastic handbags - well, words (nearly) fail me.
Biodegradable?

yehbutnobut
I agree with your posts.

To put this country's sheep farming in perspective, China has over 175 million head of sheep, compared to the UK's about 30 million.

10 million of those in Wales.

Linen is fine in the summer but hardly keep us warm
Cotton may be disastrous to produce.
Acrylics wreck the oceans as fibres wash off.

Hemp sackcloth and ashes?

Sheep only need shearing because we've bred an animal that unnaturally produces too much coat. What do you think about 'mulesing'? Does anyone think it's OK? Do people check where the wool in their new jumper came from?

www.peta.org.au/issues/clothing/cruelty-wool/

But Australian merino lambs have their skin removed to prevent fly strike - that's just barbaric!

As a farmers granddaughter I once saved a sheep’s life. Walking through a field I found it stranded, turtle-like, in its back. Everyone thought it was dead, but because of my experience I knew what to do. I grabbed hold of it and, after the second attempt, managed to upend it and set it back on its feet. It ran off.

You see a sheep’s fleece can become waterlogged with that result. They must be removed.

Her two lambs ran off after mother. The sheep would have died otherwise. Apart from this there is a condition known as fly-strike where blow flies lay their eggs on the sheep’s coat, especially in areas that get faeces on them. They then hatch and eat into the sheep’s skin.

It is good farming to sheer sheep to prevent or minimise these conditions. The fleece must not be wasted.

Yehbutnobut, I'm very nearly in agreement about the chickens. My vegan daughter keeps quail and the rest of her family have the eggs. They are very well looked after. Although I can't see the necessity of the egg eating, the big difference from farming is that there are no financial pressures to cut corners or increase profits.

I have to disagree about wool - especially merino. I'm sure there are a (very) few careful farmers who minimise harm, but those same pressures apply. We have no need to wear it when we could choose hemp or linen instead:

www.peta.org/about-peta/faq/whats-wrong-with-wearing-wool/

I realise you feel strongly about this Hetty but the world isn’t going to turn vegan no matter how much you care.

Instead lay the blame for the worst farming methods on over eating of meat, in all its forms. There is a world of difference between intensive farming and the best methods. Yes, in the end the animals have to be slaughtered.

But the quality of life is important too. Very important in fact.

If you want to make a difference, a real impact, then meat from animals should be treated with respect. It ought not to be available everywhere, in cheap meals, takeaways, fast food, etc.. These devalue the life of animals, chickens especially.

A chicken should last three meals with clever management. And it ought to be free range. Yes, it will cost considerably more but that should be the value we place on an animals life.

This culture of cheap food is not good for animals nor for the health of the nation.

Marketing - the 'power of willful ignorance':

www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKTORFmMycQ

I have an issue with vegans re their attitude to eggs and wool. I have chickens. Happy chickens. They lay me eggs and it doesn’t hurt them that I eat the eggs.

I’d prefer wool (and cotton, linen, etc.) to artificial fibres which are chemically based, often containing plastics and using fossil fuels. Shearing a sheep should not hurt it and in truth they need to get rid of their coats for several reasons.

These are two reasons I find ardent vegans illogical.

pinkquartz, yes, farms are very different. ALL meat production involves some cruelty to animals, though. There is no entirely kind or painless way to do it.

The only way to stop that cruelty is to stop demand by not eating meat. It's that simple.

Read the links and stop kidding yourselves that you do no harm. Be honest and admit that clever marketing has led you to believe the lies!

Hetty58

Not all farms are the same. Support the good farms is important. Very important.
Please stop saying all farming they can be different and are different

Razzy, 20 or 30? Beef cattle are slaughtered at two or three, dairy cows at four years old. Their lifespan is about twenty years, so they have a tenth to fifth of that. The equivalent would be about 8 to 16 years old.

Most people think of cattle in fields as fully grown, mature animals. Few have seen an adult:

www.thedodo.com/on-the-farm/knickers-giant-steer-cow-australia

Razzy the pie is made by shepherds, not of shepherds, hence, usually, an apostrophe after the 'd'. Ditto ploughman's and butter is a texture not specifically dairy. Fingers, wings, nuggets and drumsticks, describe shape, not the part of the animal.

As for hot dogs late 19th century: originally US college slang, probably influenced by a popular belief that the sausages contained dog meat

But fake meat is just that, fake meat,

M0nica, I see no logic in your arguments re 'wild counterparts'. Yes, nature is very cruel, but farm animals are only here to be eaten or provide milk and eggs. They just wouldn't exist without demand. I'm just amazed that pet owners and (so called) animal lovers can bear to cause the suffering.

Callistemon, I've stayed on a farm, witnessed de-horning and castration (without pain relief) and heard the pathetic cries of separated cows and calves. Despite a friendly, concerned farming family and beautiful scenery I felt that it was just like a concentration camp for slave animals. How can people be so blind to it, I wonder?

How shall we rid the world of plastic then?

Descriptions such as vegan food having 'meat' descriptions.
Or a 'vegan leather' handbag!!

Most of the rainforest clearance is to grow soy for animal feed. Raising cows for beef uses a huge amount of water.
As for descriptions, it always surprises me. What about hot dogs? Not dogs!! Fish fingers - fish don't have fingers!! What about chicken drumsticks or nuggets? And peanut butter is not butter! Shepherds are not in pies, there's no ploughman in a lunch and buffalo definitely don't have wings....
As for welfare, I don't think a cow would choose to be artificially inseminated every year, have a calf, which then goes off to be killed if its male, or might live a year or two, then be killed. Just so the cow can produce milk for another species to drink. We are the only mammals that drink another animal's milk I think? And I personally wouldn't want to live half my life out on pasture and half my life in a shed, then be killed before I even reach middle age. Do you actually know how long a cow naturally lives? No matter how humane, I wouldn't want to be taken off to have my throat slit when I was 20 or 30!! Words like "welfare" and "humane" are bandied about like it is a good thing to die early!

pinkquartz You should read up on agro forestry. www.adas.uk/News/the-potential-of-agroforestry-in-uk-agriculture. A way of supporting forest, wildlife and food.

I am absolutely with you on the large scale clearance of land, usually illegally and often corrupt as exploiters pay off or threaten those who should stop them.

Try living and working on a farm

Are you a farmer Hetty?
Is that what gives you your unique insight?

Actually the point I should have made is that presumably you are saying that when an animals suffers in the wild, being predated, possibly geting injured and having to live with pain and injury indefinitely, when an animal dies slowly and painfully in giving birth to young, the offspring dying as well, or lives for a prolonged period with a disease that is 'good' pain that is the price the animal must pay for not being domesticated.

However, domesticated and in humane and careful care - and I am talking about high welfare methods, any illness or disease is treated or the animal is saved prolonged suffering by slaughter. Slaughter is a last resort. In giving birth there is aid and assistance when needed.

I do not believe high welfare animals suffer anymore than their undomesticated counterparts.

I would point out that one of your references refers entirely to US agriculture, not British, and there is no argument that US standards are much lower than ours and aimed at human safety not animal welfare.

I am one with you in condemming industrial animal husbandry, but consider good welfare methods give animals, a short life but almost a cossetted one, compared with the sufferings of their wild counterparts.

Rather than only focusing on animal farming take a look at all intensive farming.
The way plants are farmed is cruel in other ways .......deforestation means wildlife is homeless and dead.
For me the plight of the orangutan is heartbreaking.

today in the Guardian is an article about Palm Oil Farming. In Liberia the local poor farmers have been tricked into handing over their land with promises of much needed aid, schools, hospitals and money.
they have been given nothing.
The promises are empty.
Palm oil is in so many products........including vegan foods.
It is intensive farming that is harmful.

I am in agreement with MOnica's post at 19.41.

Food is not simple issue anymore unless you can live off your own piece of land sadly.
we all can be more educated on the issue and there is need for more openness about what goes into food to be provided by the manufacturers.

I will never go back to being vegan or vegetarian and I do not see it as a superior way of life though I admit I did think that at that time.
I do occasionally feel over aware that I am eating a dead body and I then try to be very mindful and grateful for the food.