Unbelievable description

I realise you feel strongly about this Hetty but the world isn’t going to turn vegan no matter how much you care.

Instead lay the blame for the worst farming methods on over eating of meat, in all its forms. There is a world of difference between intensive farming and the best methods. Yes, in the end the animals have to be slaughtered.

But the quality of life is important too. Very important in fact.

If you want to make a difference, a real impact, then meat from animals should be treated with respect. It ought not to be available everywhere, in cheap meals, takeaways, fast food, etc.. These devalue the life of animals, chickens especially.

A chicken should last three meals with clever management. And it ought to be free range. Yes, it will cost considerably more but that should be the value we place on an animals life.

This culture of cheap food is not good for animals nor for the health of the nation.

Yehbutnobut, I'm very nearly in agreement about the chickens. My vegan daughter keeps quail and the rest of her family have the eggs. They are very well looked after. Although I can't see the necessity of the egg eating, the big difference from farming is that there are no financial pressures to cut corners or increase profits.

I have to disagree about wool - especially merino. I'm sure there are a (very) few careful farmers who minimise harm, but those same pressures apply. We have no need to wear it when we could choose hemp or linen instead:

www.peta.org/about-peta/faq/whats-wrong-with-wearing-wool/

As a farmers granddaughter I once saved a sheep’s life. Walking through a field I found it stranded, turtle-like, in its back. Everyone thought it was dead, but because of my experience I knew what to do. I grabbed hold of it and, after the second attempt, managed to upend it and set it back on its feet. It ran off.

You see a sheep’s fleece can become waterlogged with that result. They must be removed.

Her two lambs ran off after mother. The sheep would have died otherwise. Apart from this there is a condition known as fly-strike where blow flies lay their eggs on the sheep’s coat, especially in areas that get faeces on them. They then hatch and eat into the sheep’s skin.

It is good farming to sheer sheep to prevent or minimise these conditions. The fleece must not be wasted.

But Australian merino lambs have their skin removed to prevent fly strike - that's just barbaric!

Sheep only need shearing because we've bred an animal that unnaturally produces too much coat. What do you think about 'mulesing'? Does anyone think it's OK? Do people check where the wool in their new jumper came from?

www.peta.org.au/issues/clothing/cruelty-wool/

yehbutnobut
I agree with your posts.

To put this country's sheep farming in perspective, China has over 175 million head of sheep, compared to the UK's about 30 million.

10 million of those in Wales.

Linen is fine in the summer but hardly keep us warm
Cotton may be disastrous to produce.
Acrylics wreck the oceans as fibres wash off.

Hemp sackcloth and ashes?

As for plastic handbags - well, words (nearly) fail me.
Biodegradable?

There were extensive discussions on a thread about mulesing, you may be able to do a search.

Callistemon ... sensible posts, as always ?

Thanks
I was echoing what yeahbutnobut post#, but wondering too, what would happen to these animals if not cared for by farmers. The fox population would probably increase to a huge proportion. If we went ahead with more rewilding then wolves would breed extensively with all that available food.

Although - are foxes etc supposed to become vegan too?

I’m sorry Hetty but if you remove and animal's skin it will DIE

Perhaps farmers could be persuaded to clean the animals' bottoms with Andrex moist toilet wipes.
Other makes available. All bad environmentally.

I think Hetty is talking about Mulesing. This is the removal of strips of wool-bearing skin from around the breech (buttocks) of a sheep to prevent the parasitic infection flystrike

The wool around the buttocks can retain feces and urine, which attracts flies. The scar tissue that grows over the wound does not grow wool, so is less likely to attract the flies that cause flystrike. Mulesing is a common practice in Australia for this purpose, particularly on highly wrinkled Merino sheep.

Mulesing is considered by some to be a skilled surgical task. It can only reduce fly strike on the area cut out and has no effect on flystrike on any other part of the animal's body.

Mulesing is a controversial practice. The National Farmers Federation of Australia says that "mulesing remains the most effective practical way to eliminate the risk of 'flystrike' in sheep" and that "without mulesing up to 3,000,000 sheep a year could die a slow and agonising death from flystrike".[3] The Australian Veterinary Association (AVA) "recognises the welfare implications of mulesing of sheep. However, in the absence of more humane alternatives for preventing breech strike, the AVA accepts that the practice of mulesing should continue as a sheep husbandry procedure". The AVA also supports the use of analgesics and the accreditation of mulesing practitioners.

Source Wikipedia

However this does not happen in the UK

I have never really understood why any pain at all suffered by domesticated animals is totally unacceptable, while suffering in the same animal, where it runs undomesticated is seen as acceptable and all part of the natural cycle of wild-life.

I think animals should be treated as well as possible and I am glad to see any procedure that causes pain and distress removed, but I still think a domesticated animal that spends its life on a high welfare farm will suffer much less pain and distress over its whole life compared with its undomesticated equivalent.

I quote from *yehbutnobut^ 's last post.

mulesing remains the most effective practical way to eliminate the risk of 'flystrike' in sheep" and that "without mulesing, up to 3,000,000 sheep a year could die a slow and agonising death from flystrike

I have no problem with people eating anything they choose. I'm an omnivore. My teeth and digestive system as designed to be that. To be honest I like the taste of meat, fruit and vegs and wouldn't want to give any of them up.

What annoys me is when eating restrictions become fashionable. I don't mean omnivores, vegetarians, pescatarians or vegans. I mean the fashion of eating gluten or lactose free when you don't suffer from an allergy or intolerance. People seem to get drawn into these fashionable food restrictions by clever marketing so pay over the odds for foods. I know that if you're lactose intolerant it must be wonderful to have almond, soy or any of the other milks available and my DD who has coeliac appreciates the gluten free foods she can buy but these special foods cost a lot more. Food producing companies latch onto and promote these new fashions because it makes them more profits. I know this has been going on for decades but now it's just got silly. My shampoo advertises itself as gluten free. Well of course it's gluten free. It always has been but now it's seen as a way of promoting it.

All diets should be balanced and I know that vegans and vegetarians think particularly hard about this when they plan their menus but people on fashionable diets often restrict far too much and, once they've fallen for one fashion often include another. My DIL decided she had gluten issues without any medical tests and has now decided that she's also lactose intolerant. She's not a daft lass usually but she seems to have fallen hook, line and sinker for the gluten/lactose free fad.

I am with you, Hetty

Imagine, as women, got impregnated against our will.
Got pregnant, gave birth and our baby got removed.
All for our milk.
Time and time again, have 5 kids that we know will suffer our same fate or be killed.

Heartbreaking.

Gluren free shampoo? Is that in case you should drink it and be ill??

At one time there wasn't much in the way of GF foods in shops so perhaps people deciding theh want GF food as a lifestyle choice is a good thing because there is so much more choice now.

Perhaps the more demand, the more the price will come down.

Do merino sheep have particularly woolly bottoms? Or very absorbent wool? This could be an effect of breeding animals for profit, of treating animals as commodities.

We are more familiar with this form of cruelty in the pedigree dog world where some breeds come with built in health problems. However it's also rife among some purpose bred farm animals such as merino sheep.

The problem ,Monica, is not high welfare farms. The problem is the many people in the world can't be fed on high welfare meat or dairy as it's too expensive and uses too much water and land.

So food animals are used as machines where welfare is not a consideration.

Even if slaughter facilities were close to the place where animals are fattened this would be a big hike in welfare as it would mean no more long distance animal transports.

Re mulesing: Scottish and Welsh hill sheep are not mulesed and never die from maggots as far as |I am aware.

Hetty58

Read the links and stop kidding yourselves that you do no harm. Be honest and admit that clever marketing has led you to believe the lies

Do not tell me I am kidding myself. It is you that is deluded....Humans are omnivores....some humans need to eat meat.....we are animals Hetty......you can kid yourself about being vegan all you want but do not tell me I am taken in by marketing.......so not true.
What are the lies you refer to?
Actually I don't care so don't bother but just do not tell me I am stupid and kidding myself......how rude, Vegans are often rude must be the diet!

if you think all the food you buy and eat is produced without any harm to anything living creature then it is you kidding yourself.
How careful are you with your shopping or are you just telling people eating animals is cruel.....

You have not responded to my post pointing out that plant agriculture is also causing harm. Unless the farm is really organic You are Kidding yourself.
Where do you buy your food?

I have been vegan and veggie, now I care about the welfare of the planet......it is a huge undertaking to be responsible... I am not at all phased by people saying it is cruel to eat animals because I used to think that but I know better now. It is your choice I don't mind if you eat meat or not but where does your food come from?
Have you checked how your clothes are made?
Do you go on holiday do you have a car?

What will you do about all the nasty cruel animals that hunt and eat meat......It is all part of life.
I really don't mind that you do not eat meat, so why should you care if I do? I can see you do not believe any farming is good...what about going back to hunting and foraging?

Iifestyle choices are a personal choice which I respect but I would like to point out to the very vocal bullying vegans that it is a two way street and sometimes things are not black or white. I have been with a close friend coming out of a butchers to find ourselves in the midst of vegan action, in your face screaming abuse. My friend tried to explain that a plant based diet would be dangerous for her. Let me explain, there are those who suffer from inflammatory bowel deseases oftan resulting in radical surgery and stoma formation. IBDs are treated with low fibre diet, for stoma patients no more than 10grams A DAY no leaf veg, pips, skins, mushroom,whole grain, beans.anything that can block or irritate the bowel. A vegan diet could literally kill these people. When we finally escaped my friend was distressed and cried at their lack of understanding, so please vegans realise that there are two sides to every situation.

I became vegetarian 30 years ago after reading a book that laid out a reasoned argument for vegetarianism based on concerns for animals, personal health, and sustaining the environment and planet as a whole. As Mommawolf says, it's a personal decision and one that I've never tried to foist on anyone else.

If someone asks me "why" I'm vegetarian, etc., I explain. I buy canvas shoes and purses, non-leather boots, etc. and just go by whatever the current descriptor is for them - faux leather/fur, pleather, whatever. I wish more people considered the plight of animals but that's just a wish not a critique. It's hard when you feel strongly about something not to make a case for it, but I want to point out that conviction and judgement are two completely different things.

Alexa High welfare meat does not use more water and land then industrialised systems, You are forgetting that industrialised cattle farms feed their animals on maize and soya and a very high proportion of arable crops go towards feeding them.

High welfare cattle are grazed on pasture land not suitable for growing arable crops and fed hay if extra food is needed.

Yes, currently it is more expensive than mass produced meat, but almost every new thing in life starts as a niche market only bought by the well off. Take central heating, indoor loos, car ownership. They all started off as a specialty product but as more people bought them costs came down.

High-welfare animal rearing has much less impact on the climate as land grazed and dunged by animals absorbs more carbon from the atmosphere than growing crops. I do not see how it can require more water.

We know that modern diets need to change for the sake of the planet, and among the changes is eating less meat and farming in a way that protects our wider ecology. As the vegan and vegetarian posters show, not eating meat is not necessarily a sign of poverty, so we need as a whole reduce our meat consumption and make industrial meat production redundant.

Afterthought I have just realised that I am probably not going to eat any animal products today. Lunch will be a portion of rice and veg curry, left over from a previous meal and I am using my new soup maker this evening to make a Butternut squash and chestnut soup, served with a bread roll, that will not be buttered because THE DIET started today. Both meals will be accompanied by fruit, cooked or raw.

A classic example of an omnivore diet