How attitudes have changed towards women?

Can't win can we Doodledog We worked opposite each other for a time. My husband worked 9 - 5 and I worked 4 - 10pm my mother in law baby sat for the gap time. My husband had weekends off and I worked some weekends. All our friends were in the same boat and we helped each other if there was an emergency. Chores and child care were shared. Different times.

I think the term ‘bringing up our children’ when used to explain why you’re not working might cause surprise because those of us who work also bring up our children - it’s not something that only SAHP do.
Yes! See also 'full-time mother'. So condescending. It's as though women who work are not mothers when they are at work. Working parents (and fathers are equally responsible for parenting) are still parents when they are at work, and of course they still bring up their children.

As often as not, they see nearly as much of them as non-working parents anyway, as they are looked after by others at school, and often go on to after-school activities or social things in between school finishing and parents getting home.

We also shared childcare 30 years ago - it's not really breaking the mould . I took full maternity leave (not as generous then as it is now), then we each did a (separate) year of staying at home, and the rest was much as SirChenjin describes. It was hectic at times, but the children learned to be resourceful, and had both male and female role models for domestic and professional areas of life.

Oh, and they didn't roam the streets in the holidays, but I often see older people on social media accusing parents of contributing to obesity and lack of imagination because they don't let their children play outside on the streets - whatever parents do, someone will have a dig.

Yes, absolutely children need to be looked after - in our case that was/is a combination of working from home, paid childcare, arranging a rota with friends to look after each other’s children when we’re off or working from home and using annual leave, and I think it’s the same for most working parents.

What a shame that battles ensued about division of labour!
I think my DD was defending herself against the implication that if you aren't going out every day doing a paid job then you are doing nothing.
Let's face it, someone has to look after the children. You may have a fulltime job but you can't leave the DC unattended. Having said that during holidays we see children roaming the streets in groups - often up to mischief.

DS & DBiL both worked fulltime and had a large family. DBiL is a great cook and always cooked dinner..
DS found her female friends were critical of her. Her poor DH worked all day and then had to cook. Would they have said that had it been the other way around?

purplepatch I used to drop DH off at his work in the mornings before having the use of the only car for the rest of the day so maybe some of those chauffeurs were like me?

Indeed. But the difference is you said you dropped him off. My point was that the wives would be in the passenger seat, the husband drove then got out and the wife got into the driving seat. When she collected him she immediately got out of the driving seat and the husband got in and drove.
So, she only drove if he was not in the car. Unbelievable.

Razzy I fought a losing battle. My husband would get home, often before me at 6pm saying he had had a hard day (often lunch in the pub) and needed to sit down for a while. I would go shopping after working my own full time job and cook dinner for ourselves and 2 children. We argued constantly about the division of labour. We had our own child about 10 years later. Nothing improved.

I think it is slowly dawning on men that they have to pull their weight but it is also up to women not to enable them to be lazy. I work as does my OH. I am the main breadwinner. I refused to do housework unless he did. Yes the house was a mess for a bit. I corrected him when he suggested “helping me” with housework or childcare. I reminded him he isn’t helping me because it isn’t my job. We now have a cleaner in and split other duties 50:50. Yes he moans about it but he does it and so he should! Yet so many women I know still try and do everything whilst their OH occasionally helps. If a woman (or man) stays home to look after the kids then that in itself is a full time job and should be recognised as such. Once they are both at home chores and childcare should be split equally. So it is up to us women not to be martyrs!

I think the term ‘bringing up our children’ when used to explain why you’re not working might cause surprise because those of us who work also bring up our children - it’s not something that only SAHP do.

What DD now says to anyone expressing surprise that she is not back on the career ladder is "I'm bringing up our children" unfortunately this vital job is not seen as real work and counts for nothing on your CV. However I think things are slowly changing.

DS is a "house husband" at present and even I was a bit concerned for his future career prospects. He pointed out it was exactly the same for a woman who took some years out to look after the family.

I am proud of them because they are not afraid to break the mould.

Madgran, as someone who didn't work when babies were tiny, we were so hard up but wouldn't have left my babies when small. I frequently through my working life had to do part of someone elses job, whilst they were on maternity leave, about half of them didn't return to work, but didn't let firm know until 12th hour. Small companies don't get cover, they share the job out because of finance, I was glad when I retired.

At interviews I was always asked if I was planning to have a baby as I was married.

Oh yes I'd forgotten that one!!

I think a lot of attitudes of men/women/gender issues has happened during my lifetime. It was a juggling act most of the times as a working mother, I wasn't paid the same rate as a man for doing the same job, plus running a home. However, I wouldn't want to be young mom now, even worse I wouldn't be a young man, they can't do right for doing wrong, no wonder a lot won't commit. We have come a long way in a lot of ways but I think we lost too much in the process.

In the early 1970s I bought a tv on hire purchase. I was told my husband had to sign for it. I told them I was single. They asked who was head of the household and said my father had to sign. I was over 30, a deputy head, earning more than my father.

I didn't work until my children started school, so obviously, all the housework, cooking, childcare, etc. was down to me. Nowadays, young women do work - usually a few months after the birth of a child. They have it so much harder than I did! But it seems to be the norm now.

However, I don't notice a great deal of all the 'stuff' that needs doing having shifted over to the men!

My youngest daughter, with children aged 3 and 6, works full-time. Yet she still does most of the housework, sorts all the money-matters, is foremost in looking after the children's needs, etc.

When will men ever be equal in the running of a home and family and a full-time job? No time soon, it seems to me!

My husband and I are both retired. I do much more work around the house and garden than he does. Okay, he's five years older than I, and I get it that he's less able. But does that entitle him to sit on his backside all day, while I do everything? Yes, he cooks occasionally, clears up the kitchen now and then. But I do so hate it when he says things like, 'I've emptied the dishwasher for you.' For ME? Were none of the dirty dishes his?

No amount of argument makes this any better. He just doesn't get it. (Or, more likely, doesn't want to get it.)

Grrrr! Rant over.

I think it will take another - at least - fifty years for men to take on their full responsibility for the day-to-day running of their lives, without relying on 'Wonder Woman' to baby them!

I think that the way a lot of people in the likes of PC World speak to older people is appalling, too. I don't know if they speak differently to older men, but I remember years ago going into a shop (not PC World) with my son, who was maybe 13. I was taking the children away during the school holidays, and wanted a phone, so that I could contact my husband. This was in the days of enormous non-smart phones that could only be used to call, text or play Snake or Tetris.

The young man in the shop was very condescending (and come to think of it, I would only have been about 45), and ended the conversation by telling me that my son could help me to set it up! I had no choice but to get the phone, as mine was broken and I was leaving that afternoon, but I was furious.

Ages later, I went into a (different) store to ask about changing my iPad. Basically, I had one with a SIM contract that was up, and I wanted to know if it was worth upgrading, or whether I would be better off going SIM only and keeping the old one, and what deals they were doing at the time. I was on my way to lunch with a young female colleague, and the assistant spent all his time talking to her, as though I wasn't there. She did point out that I was the one who was asking, but it made no difference. Every time he started talking about specifications, or 'IT'-related things (not that an iPad needs high level knowledge) he directed his comments to her.

Annoyingly, I am the one who has always done all the IT-related things in the house (my husband is hopeless), we have been online since 1992, and I have worked with computers (as an end-user, not in a technical role, but still, I am no stranger to their mysteries) since the days of Word Perfect and Windows 3.1. I have always loved technology, and have been an early adopter of gadgetry for as long as I can remember, but my experience is secondary to my age, apparently. Oh, and I have a Diploma in ICT somewhere - Level 5, if memory serves . I never really used it, but nevertheless, it is probably more than a lot of the assistants in local phone shops have.

As my DH just pointed out - any time we go into places like PC World looking for computer equipment, the salesman will always try and talk to him rather than me. He always says - she is the tech expert not me, and we will generally not buy anything from that particular shop. Same with cars - my husband has never driven but I've been driving for 30 years! What is so annoying is that some of these stories on here, including mine, are from the 21st century FGS! We've come a long way baby, yeah right.

In 1966, Mars, the sweet manufacturer advertised for male graduates. The job sounded interesting so I wrote and asked them 'Why men only? What about women graduates?' I got an application form by return of post, applied, was interviewed and short-listed, but their process was slow and between interview and short listing I got offered another, better job, so I pulled out.

In 1968, just before we married we rented a flat. The Electricity board wanted DH to sign form for bill and connection. I told them not to be so ridiculous and they accepted my signature.

Also in 1968, I discovered that my male colleague (and junior) was paid more than me. I confronted my manager, who looked at me in a puzzled way and said 'But he is a man'. I promptly started job hunting.

Generally I have found that faced with discrimination, if challenged people tend to back down. And challenge I always did, politely but firmly.

I agree that many women needing to change attitudes. I wear a lot of autumn colours because they suit me. In one job someone commented on this and asked whether I wore them because my DH preferred me to wear them.

And I faced attitudes like that described by Grammaretto when I went back to work in the late 1970s. A friend asked me how I would manage over childcare, I said DH and I would take leave separately to cover holidays and half-term. Her immediate response was 'Will DH mind having to use his leave to look after the children?' She later said she had thought about going back to work, but her DH didn't want her to because there would be nobody to look after him if he was ill!!!!!

On the other hand in 2017 in a restaurant in Marseilles, France, with DD and a female friend, the waiter consistently ignored the three of us in favour of tables with a man among the eaters.

The service was so poor, we decided not to tip him and my friend who speaks excellent French told him so. As it was an expensive restaurant where waiters expected to receive quite substantial tips, his face was a picture when she told him.

But then Kalu in 1970 when my husband decided to have a vasectomy I had to sign giving my permission . So no difference really.

I think my daughters have a far more stressful life than I did at their ages. Materially, they are better off. Career wise, they are fortunate.

They are, however, coping with very responsible jobs, demanding small children, partners with short-term contract work, far higher expectations - and very little sleep.

I didn't expect to have everything, but, then again, I wasn't expected to be Superwoman either. I stayed at home to look after small children as my husband had a steady, reliable job. We had a mortgage, but tiny by comparison. We had a touring caravan for family holidays. We had plain, simple food and rarely ate out. Our children didn't expect so much - or compare designer clothing, holidays, phones and games machines with others!

Great post razzy

I think there is still a lot of sexism out there unfortunately. Women are still judged by what they wear and how they look. Men aren't. Some good things too. Women are seen as drivers. Although men still tell them that men are better drivers. Even though this is not true. And women still believe it! Older generation still have ingrained sexism. My mother, when she moved, was most put out that I had to box up all her stuff for her, not a man! And when I hung her pictures up, and had to put up nails and hooks and things, she was shocked! She wanted a "nice man" to do it. She also doesn't like female Drs because she thinks men are better. Personally, in the 1990s I remember going to buy a car and being virtually ignored at the showroom. When I went back with my husband (not on purpose with him), they were very happy to talk to him and ignore me even more. Only when they asked what he did and he said he was a student, and then told them I was the working one, and was an airline pilot, did the salesman look taken aback and try to talk to me. Too late. I went elsewhere. Can't be dealing with rude people. And I would say every single day at work I get a comment from someone, usually men, but sometimes women, saying things like "good job you don't have to reverse your aeroplane" or "did you land?" or "thank the pilot for the landing". Honestly does my head in! I had one lovely lady though, who was probably in her 70s+, I thought she was going to say similar, she asked me if I had landed it, I said yes, and then she told me she was really pleased because she had flown light aircraft until she got married, at which point she had to give it up and have a family. So times have moved on. The rudest passenger was someone who came into the flight deck (back in the day!), completely ignored me and basically spoke to my male colleague as if I wasn't there. He said in a condescending way "oh, they let women fly now do they?" At which point, my colleague, who was lovely, replied "yes - since the war you know! And she is far better than most of the male pilots I fly with!". That shut him up!

People usually presume I am cabin crew. In Cyprus a few times I was part of an all female crew. That nearly blew their minds and they kept asking to speak to the "male in charge". They would also talk to a male cabin crew over the female pilots, even if the information meant nothing to him!

I think banks, credit cards, etc. are much better now. Personally I see no difference between male and female medical staff. I still have older people thinking I am not as strong as my husband, or men, even though I am as strong as him, and fitter. And men in the building industry saying girls couldn't hack it, but then on the flip side I see women (we are not girls!) at stable yards, working their butts off, handling strong and sometimes dangerous horses, falling off, getting injured and continuing to work/ ride, hauling bales of hay around, etc. Most men can't hack the work because it can't be done by using a machine.

DD has decided to be a stay at home mum until her DC begin school. She finds herself explaining and justifying her decision to new people she meets which is the other side of the coin.

Very true Paperbackwriter it makes me uncomfortable and I'm probably guilty too at times. It's hard to rid yourself of the shackles of an upbringing deeply entrenched in the culture and vocabulary of a former age.
We are dying off though. My pal and I were saying today how many funerals there have been lately.

times have changed in the workplace but we still have a way to go to gain truly equal pay per hour for equal work until it becomes the norm for the highest paid jobs in the country to be undertaken on a part time basis.
It is also good to see some younger men embracing paternity leave when their children are born but it far less common to have a man take a year ( or more) out of his career to care for the child(ren), and I have only seen this when the wife was the bigger earner - and the decision did affect his own promotion prospects!

To be sadly honest, I see a lot of innate sexism here on Gransnet. There was one post today from someone who was too ill to do the dishes and her husband said to leave it to the cleaner as for some reason he didn't see it as "his" job so there she was, up in the morning, still ill but washing up. And many times there are women on here who refer to their male partner's domestic contribution as 'helping'. Surely that needs to change?